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Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

theatlantic.com

21–30 of 504 posts

Re: Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

#21
post #11

Haidt makes an excellent observation about the mid-20th century unity being an aberration due to the technology of the time: > Gurri is no fan of elites or of centralized authority, but he notes a constructive feature of the pre-digital era: a single “mass audience,” all consuming the same content, as if they were all looking into the same gigantic mirror at the reflection of their own society. Something I think we o…

This might be a weird outcome of the inability of large groups to process nuance. Groups seem to struggle with the idea that things can be done one way in one place and another way in another place - and struggle in a way that individuals seem not to.

Groups - even small government types, weirdly - seem to fall into a trap whenever something goes wrong. The answer to a challenge is "centralise power, then do things my way". Never mind that power is difficult to coerce, rarely does things your way and any mistakes made are standardised and amplified accross an entire country.

I recall in the early days of the COVID crisis where the US banned working COVID tests (I forget if it was the CDC or some other government body) in favour of their own faulty one, which totally scuppered any chance of controlling the disease. Foreseeable outcome of the strategy. But despite that sort of thing being easy to pick, groups don't argue for parallelism in an emergency.

Re: Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

#22

This article is 100% wrong. Russia's misinformation campaign against the U.S. is 100% the cause of our current national discord. Our entire culture has been maliciously and actively poisoned by a proven state sponsored attack on the U.S. and Western Europe. Everything in the past decade needs to be re-evaluated and filtered through the lens of Russian disinformation. Day in and day out, for over 10 years, the Russian…

Wait, why pardon the Jan 6th people? Just because one's been mislead by misinformation to believe something false doesn't mean that they are blameless for flagrantly breaking the law in response.

Re: Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

#23
post #11

Haidt makes an excellent observation about the mid-20th century unity being an aberration due to the technology of the time: > Gurri is no fan of elites or of centralized authority, but he notes a constructive feature of the pre-digital era: a single “mass audience,” all consuming the same content, as if they were all looking into the same gigantic mirror at the reflection of their own society. Something I think we o…

> Differences in world view are less significant when the bureaucrats and executives with power over your life live nearby instead of in another city and state.

How do you reconcile this with jim crow-era terrorism, for example? The movements were local and very loosely organized on even a regional level, but the bureaucrats wielded incredible power over individuals in their jurisdiction. There were definitely other factors but top-down power was important in the weakening of those structures.

I'm not necessarily for centralization, nor do I think our current system is good or has us on a healthy path by any means. I'm just not convinced stakes were lower in the early 20th century.

Re: Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

#24

This is the dumbest thing I have seen come from Jonathan Haidt. If social media is this powerful a destabilizer of societies, I wonder how Haidt explains first world countries like Germany, Canada, and most of the rest of the planet that have social media but haven't fallen into the same sort of divisiveness the US has.

Canada has massive division. It's just masked.

Re: Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

#25
Fair summary of America's disheartening descent into structural idiocy. "Glad" I can see it with the clarity of an outsider, but then again... these things tend to cross the big pond sooner or later at least somewhat, as evidenced by right-wing flareups here in Europe.

Hope we will be able to look back on this with the relief of having overcome a bad dream. Then again, there won't be long until that other crisis hits... and that one's not just happening in the head.

Re: Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

#26

This article is 100% wrong. Russia's misinformation campaign against the U.S. is 100% the cause of our current national discord. Our entire culture has been maliciously and actively poisoned by a proven state sponsored attack on the U.S. and Western Europe. Everything in the past decade needs to be re-evaluated and filtered through the lens of Russian disinformation. Day in and day out, for over 10 years, the Russian…

You are giving too much credit to Putin. All he did was identify already-existing issues and fuel them further.

Saying this: "The reactions to what I'm saying will be predictable" is a good attempt but doesn't really work I've found. Of course it's predictable, that doesn't make it incorrect.

Yes you guys have been played, but if you didn't see huge growing divisions within the united States well before Putin started to use social media then I don't know what to tell you.

I hope readers here can see that spammers and bad actors have been using social media to affect opinion for years and years before Putin was utilizing them to his benefit. You silicon valley guys set up a system that became doomed to fail. Trump and Putin are just catalyzing an already-collapsing system.

I understand that you are angry, it comes out in your text. But the way out of this is not to add more fuel to the fire unless you want to speed up the natural process of a decaying empire.

Everyone loses faith in their empire eventually. You see it in the increasing selfishness, fear and greed, no?

Killing Putin won't do much at this point except to temporarily satisfy the anger.

An analogy to me is the USA is sick and Putin is just an opportunistic parasite. A strong, healthy host would be able to defend itself.

"2) I'm a liberal Democrat and I'm somehow trying to target Republicans because I hate freedom.

I'm not spreading a narrative. I'm trying desperately to understand why articles like this from the Atlantic keep trying to explain the state of the country, when we already know the answer."

Like a disease, what started from a single cause quickly becomes multifaceted. At that point fixing the original cause is no longer enough. It's useful to know so it doesn't repeat, however.

As you can see in your example, during times of high stress people break down into what they care about most. Some into their love of freedom, others in their need to help. Some take risks under pressure, others hide. You can see the left and right divide based on a few of these and then everyone else gets pulled in by social gravity. Most of us believe what we believe out of loneliness, purpose, identity, not logic.

I am on the other side. I have zero faith in our institutions as they have literally killed my friends and destroyed my life. And so I have adopted a more libertarian perspective since I have experienced more good coming from individuals with good hearts than any of my experiences with our healthcare or education systems.

That doesn't mean I am correct. And I would be incredibly naive to not accept that there needs to be a healthy balance between all.

Re: Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

#27
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canada isn't immune from this, just look at these moronic displays. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/22926134/canada-truc... This idiocy was all organized on social media. The convoys are overwhelmingly unpopular among larger Canadian society, but social media allowed them to organize in an echo chamber. No comment on Germany, but I would be betting on things being similar there, not different. My personal the…

It isn't immune, but it certainly hasn't gotten to the point it has in the US. We had a failed insurrection two years ago that killed 5 people. The truck convoy was a bunch of morons thinking they could get their way by going to Ottawa and being absolutely obnoxious --- and ultimately failing because no one wanted to put up with their shit. Social media is a factor. It's not the main factor, and Haidt's weird focus o…

Canada literally had to suspend the charter and due process by enacting the emergency measures act, which is unprecedented amongst western countries. Why would the government do that if no one supported them anyways?

Your insurrection did not kill 5 people by the way. I get that there's a weird urge to make that event some sort of insanely important historical moment but it doesn't mean you have to make up dead people.

Ironically, from a neutral outsider view, what happened on the 6th of January can also be described as "a bunch of morons thinking they could get their way and being absolutely obnoxious". It doesn't look that way when you are knees deep in american partisan culture wars, but Americans have a tendency to think that anything that happens in the US is exceptional and unique.

Re: Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

#28
post #26

This article is 100% wrong. Russia's misinformation campaign against the U.S. is 100% the cause of our current national discord. Our entire culture has been maliciously and actively poisoned by a proven state sponsored attack on the U.S. and Western Europe. Everything in the past decade needs to be re-evaluated and filtered through the lens of Russian disinformation. Day in and day out, for over 10 years, the Russian…

You are giving too much credit to Putin. All he did was identify already-existing issues and fuel them further. Saying this: "The reactions to what I'm saying will be predictable" is a good attempt but doesn't really work I've found. Of course it's predictable, that doesn't make it incorrect. Yes you guys have been played, but if you didn't see huge growing divisions within the united States well before Putin started…

To add to this.. Us Americans I don't think understand how many other parts of the world don't like us. If you want evidence of this go travel, and see how people treat you, then watch their eyes light up if you tell them you are a Canadian and not American.

If it wasn't Putin it would be someone else eventually. You can't win the whack-a-mole game forever.

Let's say we could repeat things without Putin. Facebook and Google and tech companies would have kept growing naively, making it easier and easier to break the system over time. Eventually some team somewhere would infect social media and use it against the USA.

I would actually argue that when humans are exposed to too much information their ability to make rational decisions actually goes down, and we are more likely to use our emotion to make decisions. If you e ever felt burnt out, and overwhelmed by decisions you'll likely have felt something like this.

It is inevitable in my eyes. I think us humans make the mistake of thinking history happens because of the names. It doesn't.

Re: Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

#29
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Odd comment coming the day after far right and far left candidates won more than half the votes in the French presidential election, with the center left and right collapsing and centrist Macron getting under 30% (despite having moved significantly to the right on cultural issues).

France has its own issues as well, in many ways parallel to the US from what I have heard, with a sharp urban-rural divide and a legacy of colonialism that has largely not been addressed.

I mean yeah if you dismiss or downplay the issues every other country has, the US looks unique. But that's not exactly meaningful right? Also, considering what's happening in france, do you agree that your original comment was not accurate?

Re: Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

#30
post #24

This is the dumbest thing I have seen come from Jonathan Haidt. If social media is this powerful a destabilizer of societies, I wonder how Haidt explains first world countries like Germany, Canada, and most of the rest of the planet that have social media but haven't fallen into the same sort of divisiveness the US has.

Canada has massive division. It's just masked.

In the US the division is arguably worse and the masks are coming off.
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