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San Francisco cops pull over a Cruise driverless car for no lights on

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Re: San Francisco cops pull over a Cruise driverless car for no lights on

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mechanics need to be able to turn them off when they work on them or they’ll get blinded. Every car I’ve driven in the last 10 years seems to have an auto mode though. I’d be surprised if the Chevy’s these are based on don’t have an auto mode. It could be that a fuse blew here.

The same cars sold in Canada have the tail and head lights on when it turns dark since September 2021. If the mechanic is scared for their eyes they can just have well lit area to work and the lights will not turn on.

Let’s not be so dismissive of issues for the plebs. You wouldn’t want bright lights in your face while trying to work either.

Artificial lights are not very bright in terms of lux, even very bright ones. Headlights need to come on at dusk which is still far brighter than a shop.

It seems Canada thought of this by allowing lights to be disabled when the car is in park.

Re: San Francisco cops pull over a Cruise driverless car for no lights on

#272
post #72

I am really worried by the fact that I am the unwilling tester in the Great Driverless Car Experiment. Tradition has it that when you load-test a new bridge, you put the architect underneath. I feel like this, except I didn't design those driverless cars, somebody else did. Being an experienced software engineer, my trust in the software in these cars is pretty low. And yet they are testing them on me, because I can…

This.

These robots are massive and fast, they are killers. Yet as long as they look like cars we let them run loose on public streets. It's kinda nuts. (Arguably car traffic as it's set up now is kinds nuts too, but that's a different argument.)

The obvious thing to do is start with something like a golf cart that is limited to, say, 5mph top speed, and work your way up.

Re: San Francisco cops pull over a Cruise driverless car for no lights on

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are all unwilling testers of every new teenage driver who hits the road.

That teenage driver goes through a training and certification process, and we have ways of stopping them from driving if they fuck up too badly. They also have liability for their actions. Most of those are lacking or at least inconsistent, for AI driving.

That's a pretty generous interpretation of the oversight for the average teenage driver. Most controls are lacking for ALL drivers, human or not.

The first footage that comes out of a felony traffic stop on an AI driver will be amusing!

Re: San Francisco cops pull over a Cruise driverless car for no lights on

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am really worried by the fact that I am the unwilling tester in the Great Driverless Car Experiment. You’re basically an non-consenting tester for every piece of innovation that society every has/ever will come up with, in one way or another. It’s an unavoidable feature of living on the same planet as 8 billion other people. Perhaps the safety of this technology does need to improve, or perhaps not. But there’s n…

> You’re basically an non-consenting tester for every piece of innovation that society every has/ever will come up with, in one way or another. It’s an unavoidable feature of living on the same planet as 8 billion other people. Perhaps the safety of this technology does need to improve, or perhaps not. But there’s no level of improvement that would ever be able to satisfy this outrage you’ve expressed at something ne…

And they did, until they didn't. This is not a brand new, unproven technology. It's been developing for over a decade. The car didn't hurt anyone or crash into anything - it simply did not have its lights on. The behavior to drive to a safer place for the traffic stop was intentional, per Cruise. This is something human drivers do as well. When being pulled over, it's common to pull into a parking lot or other nearby place that isn't in the driving path, for the officer's safety and convenience, in addition to allowing traffic to continue to flow without obstruction.

Re: San Francisco cops pull over a Cruise driverless car for no lights on

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are all unwilling testers of every new teenage driver who hits the road.

That teenage driver goes through a training and certification process, and we have ways of stopping them from driving if they fuck up too badly. They also have liability for their actions. Most of those are lacking or at least inconsistent, for AI driving.

That teenage driver goes through a training and certification process, and we have ways of stopping them from driving if they fuck up too badly.

This is a complete aside, but not having a license doesn't really prevent you from getting in a car and driving it. I was just reminded of this when a buddy's parked car was struck by a drunk driver who was not legally licensed to drive because their license was revoked from having many prior DUI's. Luckily they didn't kill anyone.

Hopefully it will be easier to enforce shutting down unsafe driverless cars.

I've also known teens without licenses who had to drive their irresponsible buddies' cars home after the licensed driver drove somewhere and got drunk. It's not like there's a biometric scanner in each car that verifies the person behind the wheel is a licensed driver...

Re: San Francisco cops pull over a Cruise driverless car for no lights on

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are all unwilling testers of every new teenage driver who hits the road.

That teenage driver goes through a training and certification process, and we have ways of stopping them from driving if they fuck up too badly. They also have liability for their actions. Most of those are lacking or at least inconsistent, for AI driving.

Here in San Francisco you don't actually need to go through any training to receive a drivers license. You just need to pass a computer test (of mostly easily memorizable material) and a road test that consists mostly of turning left and right a few times. They don't even test highway driving, three point turns or parallel parking like they do in some other countries.

Also, didn't the entire Uber fleet get grounded after the Tempe death, with a huge months-long NHTSA investigation?

Re: San Francisco cops pull over a Cruise driverless car for no lights on

#277
post #72

I am really worried by the fact that I am the unwilling tester in the Great Driverless Car Experiment. Tradition has it that when you load-test a new bridge, you put the architect underneath. I feel like this, except I didn't design those driverless cars, somebody else did. Being an experienced software engineer, my trust in the software in these cars is pretty low. And yet they are testing them on me, because I can…

We are all unwilling testers of every new teenage driver who hits the road.

I think elderly drivers are probably more dangerous than teenagers. Lately whenever I've seen a really reckless driver, it's been someone very elderly and who looked totally overwhelmed by the experience of driving. I've seen old people struggling to keep up with traffic, driving in bike lanes or just on the side of the road thinking it was a second lane... There should be more frequently driver exams (and car exams) in the US.

Re: San Francisco cops pull over a Cruise driverless car for no lights on

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does sound silly at first, but I think suspending the one car is actually a rather elegant solution on several counts. 1. Easy to implement 2. Doesn't punish fleet scale (compare: suspending the whole fleet means a fleet that's twice as large would be suspended twice as often) 3. Punishes the fleet owner in proportion to the frequency of the error 4. Is exactly correct when the cause is really a hardware problem s…

The whole fleet should be grounded until the issue is debugged. Without debugging the issue * It might be a software issue (maybe the cars self-destruct when they encounter a solar eclipse -- silly example, but if the cars malfunction on events which are rare but wide-spread and correlated this could cause an emergency). * If it is a hardware issue, it must be understood how a hardware failure can put the device in a…

Yet we sort of do accept a linear disincentive for putting dangerous drivers on the road, worst case we take that driver off the road and very rarely do anything to increase the standard all drivers need to meet such that it would weed out all the drivers that are as bad as or worse than the ones taken off the road.

I think you're letting perfect be the enemy of good. In an ideal world we'd stop everything for debugging. Realistically all we need to have a net benefit right now is for the cars to be safer drivers than human drivers on average. As long as the issue isn't suspected of being intentionally triggered or correlated with some sort of large scale event, the world is still paying less of a cost than now even when not grounding the fleet.

A reasonable compromise would be to require autonomous vehicles moving in especially risky areas like highways to have a human inside with at least a "stop or slow down safely" override. In places where the vehicle would be moving too slowly to cause serious injury we can allow them to be human-less. By defining clear and objective criteria, the decision to ground a fleet becomes much easier to make (particularly for the machine, since you don't need advanced AI to check GPS against a database and apply appropriate speed limiters). If the incident was a serious malfunction of a basic function like ignoring the criteria for human-less operation, the fleet should be grounded. In other cases it wouldn't justify preemptively grounding the entire fleet (but may justify it after the severity of the issue has been assessed, probably by a group independent of the company responsible for the vehicles).

Re: San Francisco cops pull over a Cruise driverless car for no lights on

#279
Just my anecdote, saw a cruise car trying to turn left from the middle lane on Franklin.

Came to a complete stop, bringing traffic to a halt, and waited for the cars on its left to clear out, including anyone who went around, then cautiously moved into the left lane and turned.

Some kind of rude, selfish programming I’d be yelling at a person for.

Re: San Francisco cops pull over a Cruise driverless car for no lights on

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are all unwilling testers of every new teenage driver who hits the road.

That teenage driver goes through a training and certification process, and we have ways of stopping them from driving if they fuck up too badly. They also have liability for their actions. Most of those are lacking or at least inconsistent, for AI driving.

Two human drivers passed me today in a street where passing me was unconditionally forbidden. In that street no car may pass any bicycle, ever, and there's giant signage. Are you suggesting that we have consistent, reliable ways to prevent those two from driving again?
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