FBI Didn't Knock Down a Suspect's Door Because 'It Was an Affluent Neighborhood' • Hacker News Board

Re: FBI Didn't Knock Down a Suspect's Door Because 'It Was an Affluent Neighborhood'

#241

Post by Epiphany21 » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 1:33 PM UTC

jmyeet wrote: post #178

Let's compare this experience to that of Amir Locke [1]. To summarize: the Minneapolis PD was executing a no-knock warrant in a homicide investigation. Locke was not the target of the warrant but was sleeping on the couch. He was licensed for the firearm and it was completely legal. When startled awake, he reached for his gun (natural reaction) and the police shot and killed him. You'd think the NRA would be all over…

>Let's also compare to Kyle Rittenhouse. Attorneys wanted to use the fact that one of his victims was a sex offender as a defense

It's relevant because it proves that the guy who was killed already had a lengthy violent criminal record. This helps to build up the case for a self-defense shooting. In most countries past offenses are taken into consideration when prosecuting a wide variety of crimes, meaning this is nothing new.

Also, I have zero pity for someone who raped children, and neither does any jury. Why wouldn't the defense bring it up?

Re: FBI Didn't Knock Down a Suspect's Door Because 'It Was an Affluent Neighborhood'

#242

Post by Clubber » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 1:34 PM UTC

jmyeet wrote: post #178

Let's compare this experience to that of Amir Locke [1]. To summarize: the Minneapolis PD was executing a no-knock warrant in a homicide investigation. Locke was not the target of the warrant but was sleeping on the couch. He was licensed for the firearm and it was completely legal. When startled awake, he reached for his gun (natural reaction) and the police shot and killed him. You'd think the NRA would be all over…

>You'd think the NRA would be all over this: a legal gun owner killed in his home by police? Nope [2]. I wonder why.

The NRA is horribly corrupt and self serving. It seems many organizations have come to this demise in the US the past few decades. I've heard of many gun owners abandon them.

>Let's also compare to Kyle Rittenhouse. Attorneys wanted to use the fact that one of his victims was a sex offender as a defense [3].

I assume it's a tactic to show he was a "bad guy," which was used to prove that Rittenhouse wasn't the initial aggressor. I believe the person in question had also been discharged from a mental facility that day and had quite a few issues with the law.

>I bring this up because I want to highlight the different worlds people live in when it comes to law enforcement.

While I completely agree with what you are saying, there are many different law enforcement organizations in the US (each city/town has one) and in those departments there are many different officers. Some of those organizations are highly corrupt and shouldn't exist and some of those officers are highly corrupt and shouldn't be employed or be jailed.

Having said that, any organization that tries to cover up the actions of a bad officer shouldn't exist and is part of the problem.

All of this is the result of the 50+ year drug war our government has been waging against its citizens.

Re: FBI Didn't Knock Down a Suspect's Door Because 'It Was an Affluent Neighborhood'

#243

Post by eesmith » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 1:36 PM UTC

LudwigNagasena wrote: post #187

eesmith wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. But then you have to argue that John T. Walton provided $18 billion of value to his parents. And if Sam Walton were taxed at 100% for all wealth over $100 million, so John Walton were only worth $20 million, then would John have provided less value to his parents? My parents spend several $100,000 on my upbringing. Does that represent my value to my parents? The children from the world's poorest families also p…

Value is subjective and dependence on your circumstances.

The current circumstances are from seibelj's comment "you become rich by providing value to other people", where "value" is specifically something which provides economic wealth.

Gaining wealth by being the child of a wealthy person is not something specific to capitalism, certainly happened in feudal monarchies, and almost certainly also happened with the children of high level apparatchiks in the Soviet Union.

Re: FBI Didn't Knock Down a Suspect's Door Because 'It Was an Affluent Neighborhood'

#244

Post by Clubber » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 1:36 PM UTC

throwaway040922 wrote: post #221

Bilal_io wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe Duncan Lemp should have received the media attention he deserves. That being said: 1- You said "This kind of violence affects everyone" and this is disingenuous when we look at the ratio of black vs white being murdered by police. [1] 2- The media attention Breonna et al. received was not about the individuals but for the community in general due to my previous point. [1] https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pn…

> You said "This kind of violence affects everyone" and this is disingenuous when we look at the ratio of black vs white being murdered by police. If you want to argue that this kind of violence affects certain races more, that's fine. But why downplay the fact that it affects all races? The percentages are higher for Black Americans, but White Americans still make up the majority of people shot by police[1]. If peop…

>The percentages are higher for Black Americans, but White Americans still make up the majority of people shot by police[1].

Yes I never understood this tactic. If you really want citizen support (which is required), you need to show that all citizens are subject to this type of injustice. If leaders just say one group is affected and don't show that all citizens are affected, you won't get change as fast, if at all.

It's almost as if there is an ulterior motive to actually solving the problem, or perhaps the leadership just won't look past their own environment. Either way, the shiz is way out of hand and everyone should be afraid of it.

I remember reading an article where police were serving a warrant and they straight up shot the guy next to his pregnant girlfriend through the window while they were sleeping. They justified it by saying the room was boobytrapped. The guy was staying at his parents house when this occurred. It was very suspect, but I never saw national media attention it deserved, and I find it highly unlikely a kid living with his parents would place a active, lethal booby trap in his bedroom inside his parent's house. It was an actual murder squad. Pretty crazy. I wish I could find the article (it was local.)

Re: FBI Didn't Knock Down a Suspect's Door Because 'It Was an Affluent Neighborhood'

#245

Post by ambrozk » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 1:39 PM UTC

jmyeet wrote: post #178

Let's compare this experience to that of Amir Locke [1]. To summarize: the Minneapolis PD was executing a no-knock warrant in a homicide investigation. Locke was not the target of the warrant but was sleeping on the couch. He was licensed for the firearm and it was completely legal. When startled awake, he reached for his gun (natural reaction) and the police shot and killed him. You'd think the NRA would be all over…

I would be find what you wrote much more convincing if I didn't have sufficient knowledge of the Rittenhouse case to know you were deliberately misleading us by selectively presentating and omitting key facts.

1. You omit the defense's stated reasoning for bringing up Rosenbaum's prior convictions. Their theory was not "pedophiles bad kill pedophiles good." They wanted to argue that Rosenbaum lunged at Rittenhouse in order to take his firearm, because, as a convicted felon, Rosenbaum was not legally able to purchase that firearm. It was important that they show evidence that Rosenbaum had a pernicious motive to lunge at Rittenhouse, because the prosecution was alleging the only reason he did so was in self-defense.

2. More crucially, you omit the fact that the judge prevented his defense from mentioning these convictions in court for fear it would be prejudicial. Because of this, the jury never found out about Rosenbaum's extensive criminal history. [1] This craters the relevance of this example. It doesn't demonstrate any sort of double standard.

[1]: https://www.insider.com/details-the-kyle-rittenhouse-jury-wo...

Re: FBI Didn't Knock Down a Suspect's Door Because 'It Was an Affluent Neighborhood'

#246

Post by thr0wawayf00 » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 1:41 PM UTC

throwaway040922 wrote: post #237

magicalist wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but received almost no media attention Just because something didn't become an internet cause célèbre doesn't mean it didn't get attention. I mean, just from this site: - https://reason.com/2020/03/16/maryland-man-killed-in-no-knoc... - https://reason.com/2020/07/02/why-havent-we-seen-the-body-ca... - https://reason.com/video/2020/10/16/the-complicated-truth-ab... - https://reason.com/2021/01/08/prosecutors-office-…

I think the fact that you have to go to alternative media like Reason to find articles about it speaks volume. Check out searches of mainstream news sites: Google search for "Duncan Lemp" site:nytimes.com[1]: Two articles, neither of which are about his shooting, but which mention him in passing when talking about Boogaloo "extremists." Google search for "Breonna Taylor" site:nytimes.com[2]: Dozens of articles from t…

Simply comparing search results between publications really ignores the context of the stories and how they develop. People think that all newspapers should put out the exact same amount of content on each topic all of the time, but it's never worked that way.

Again, Breonna Taylor's story became an example of the case against the status quo of policing in America. Her story was elevated precisely because it was yet another example of injustice carried out by police that ultimately went unpunished. Community leaders and activists elevated this story on racial grounds because they believed it was important to do so.

Who in Duncan's community elevated his story? Who thought it was important to tell the story that a white guy died in a similar situation? It was covered as an event in the press when it happened, but it didn't get the kind of traction that Taylor's did because it ultimately didn't have the community support. Who would be the white equivalent of an Al Sharpton talking about how whites are mistreated by police? I really struggle to name someone that fits that description.

Re: FBI Didn't Knock Down a Suspect's Door Because 'It Was an Affluent Neighborhood'

#247

Post by ajsnigrutin » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 1:42 PM UTC

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #156

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean... let's be real... a rich person will answer the knock, follow the police peacefully to the police car, and the only thing they'll say and do is "i want my lawyer"

White collar criminals shredding documents and wiping hard drives is not unknown. The purpose of a no knock raid is, in theory at least, to stop people destroying evidence. They only incidentally turn into shootouts, that's not what they're intended for.

In modern times.... with hard drive encryption by default, and mostly paperless work, any sort of criminal, who can afford a house like that, doesn't need to run into the office, and start the shredder, while the police are knocking on the door.

Re: FBI Didn't Knock Down a Suspect's Door Because 'It Was an Affluent Neighborhood'

#248

Post by Bilal_io » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 1:42 PM UTC

antattack wrote: post #238

Bilal_io wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe Duncan Lemp should have received the media attention he deserves. That being said: 1- You said "This kind of violence affects everyone" and this is disingenuous when we look at the ratio of black vs white being murdered by police. [1] 2- The media attention Breonna et al. received was not about the individuals but for the community in general due to my previous point. [1] https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pn…

Dismissing others hardship or injustice because theirs is worse seems very counter productive. What is the intention of pointing out that African-Americans have it worse? Should we have special laws only for that group? Or, should more non African-Americans die due to bad laws to balance the scales.

I never dismissed anyone's hardship. Read the first line of my comment again.

The intention of pointing that out was in response to a specific comment. Context matters.

I want police violence to stop. Period. I want them to be held accountable for their actions. But when an article talks about the way law enforcement treats people of different classes with two different standards, and someone starts complaining that black people are getting more media attention, I feel obligated to reference the reason why, without dismissing anyone's hardship. Again, context.

Re: FBI Didn't Knock Down a Suspect's Door Because 'It Was an Affluent Neighborhood'

#249

Post by throwaway040922 » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 1:44 PM UTC

jmyeet wrote: post #235

throwaway040922 wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Duncan Lemp was white, and was similarly awoken in the middle of the night by police, reached for a gun, and was shot dead (unlike Locke, I don't think he even pointed the gun at them). It actually happened the day before the Breonna Taylor shooting (another similar situation), but received almost no media attention. Even around the area where Duncan Lemp was killed, you will find a lot of posters for Breonna Taylor,…

The Lemp case has a number of pertinent differences. First let me say that the bodycam footage to this day hasn't been released. Until it is, I give very little weight to the claims made by police. In fact this should be a rule: bodycam footage should be required for serving all warrants, arresting any suspect and so on. The police simply have too much power that can be abused and video footage (bodycam and amateur)…

> The Lemp case has a number of pertinent differences.

You were comparing the Locke case to the Abou-Khatwa case in the article (about a white collar criminal the FBI was going after, where guns weren't involved) and the Rittenhouse case (shootings which didn't involve any law enforcement agency). The shootings of Locke, Lemp, and Taylor all have certain differences, but they're much more similar to each other than to those other cases.

Re: FBI Didn't Knock Down a Suspect's Door Because 'It Was an Affluent Neighborhood'

#250

Post by AnonCoward4 » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 1:44 PM UTC

Bilal_io wrote: post #207

throwaway040922 wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Duncan Lemp was white, and was similarly awoken in the middle of the night by police, reached for a gun, and was shot dead (unlike Locke, I don't think he even pointed the gun at them). It actually happened the day before the Breonna Taylor shooting (another similar situation), but received almost no media attention. Even around the area where Duncan Lemp was killed, you will find a lot of posters for Breonna Taylor,…

I believe Duncan Lemp should have received the media attention he deserves. That being said: 1- You said "This kind of violence affects everyone" and this is disingenuous when we look at the ratio of black vs white being murdered by police. [1] 2- The media attention Breonna et al. received was not about the individuals but for the community in general due to my previous point. [1] https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pn…

This is disingenious at best. Looking at the population ratio vs killing makes no sense whatsoever. In that case just use that to justify why men are more often subject to police violence than women. We all know why, but with race there may be no differences ... but there are.

In the case of race you can't just ignore that black people do roughly 50% of violent crimes (just look at arson, don't even try to excuse it) and make up 25% of the lethal shootings with police.

It's also obvious why the racism is the other way around than some people make it out to be. Every police officer thinks twice to shoot on someone with dark skin because of the media coverage that can and often does take place. With killing white people, even if unjust this is rarely if ever a headline (except you can spin it, like when he helped a PoC).