How did I get so unhappy working in tech? • Hacker News Board

Re: How did I get so unhappy working in tech?

#131

Post by _moof » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 10:34 AM UTC

tome wrote: post #95

ipaddr wrote: post #44

As someone who has been in the industry for 20+ years I've noticed changes that may have lead to this point. Daily standups, meetings, gluing frameworks Daily standups are is a one size solution to a communication problem. Daily standups shouldn't be necessary with a team constantly communicating. Daily standups leads to cutting projects into small daily tasks. This leads to a system of micromanagement and it doesn't…

I'm generally puzzled by the HN conventional wisdom against meetings, and I'm puzzled by this thread specifically because there doesn't seem to be a single commenter who is as much as just fine with meetings. Am I really in such a small minority, or has HN turned into an echo chamber on this issue, where no one with a countervailing opinion dares to get a word in? Having a meeting interrupt my work ranges from slight…

> I'm puzzled by this thread specifically because there doesn't seem to be a single commenter who is as much as just fine with meetings.

It's a self-selecting sample effect. No one responds to a survey when things are just ok.

Re: How did I get so unhappy working in tech?

#132

Post by Juliate » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 10:37 AM UTC

johannes1234321 wrote: post #124

ipaddr wrote: post #44

As someone who has been in the industry for 20+ years I've noticed changes that may have lead to this point. Daily standups, meetings, gluing frameworks Daily standups are is a one size solution to a communication problem. Daily standups shouldn't be necessary with a team constantly communicating. Daily standups leads to cutting projects into small daily tasks. This leads to a system of micromanagement and it doesn't…

> Daily standups shouldn't be necessary with a team constantly communicating. I don't agree there. Constant communication is important for a good team, however in constant flow it often is being lost, what is important. Important things easily get lost between other noise. Whether a daily is the right approach can be argued. Maybe a weekly is enough. However having a time where everybody listens and things can be bro…

He's not denying that (constant) communication isn't important.

But that, planned, too frequent, mandatory, with a prescriptive format, meetings (which dailies/weeklies are) is harmful.

I've been 21 years in this industry, the past 7 in Scrum/Agile infested companies/teams and I've never seen such a sterile and unproductive way of work.

Re: How did I get so unhappy working in tech?

#133

Post by onion2k » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 10:46 AM UTC

makeitdouble wrote: post #126

onion2k wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a very simple fix if you believe you have too many meetings - decline them. If you don't think you're needed in a meeting, say so. Give a reason like "I have nothing to add to that discussion." or "There's no agenda so I don't know if I'm needed." or simply "I'm busy, I think my time would be better spent on story 123." Make the people who invite you start to consider if you're really needed[1]. Also, create…

Your point sounds to me like: "It's your fault if you're miserable. It's up to you to confront your peers and fight your organization to protect your sanity " It might be true in many settings, but I'd see that as a toxic and hostile environment we shouldn't be accepting as normal. Some people will sure enjoy Fight Club kind of places, I still wouldn't assume they are "a very simple fix" to shitty companies. Quitting…

Your point sounds to me like: "It's your fault if you're miserable. It's up to you to confront your peers and fight your organization to protect your sanity"

No one automatically just knows when people are unhappy with a process if they don't talk about it. There are lots of people who think agile ceremonies are a good thing, and they think they work, and in a lot of cases they do work. People don't question that if they don't need to. Consequently, if you're unhappy with it, you need to say something.

"Quit for a better workplace" doesn't work for minor things because every workplace will have something that you don't like. You'll never be able to find the perfect role. You have to find somewhere that's mostly good, and then change it to be better. If you can't then you should move on.

Re: How did I get so unhappy working in tech?

#134

Post by Joeri » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 10:47 AM UTC

twblalock wrote: post #89

ipaddr wrote: post #44

As someone who has been in the industry for 20+ years I've noticed changes that may have lead to this point. Daily standups, meetings, gluing frameworks Daily standups are is a one size solution to a communication problem. Daily standups shouldn't be necessary with a team constantly communicating. Daily standups leads to cutting projects into small daily tasks. This leads to a system of micromanagement and it doesn't…

Being in meetings means you get to be in the room when decisions are made. Even if you aren't an active participant, you get to at least listen in. Almost all problems are really people problems, and people problems can only be solved by communicating with other people. Some engineers seem to want to work for long stretches uninterrupted, like monks copying sacred texts. That is not the way to succeed. To succeed you…

Focused work is essential to quality results in programming. I guarantee you that whatever piece of software you hold most dear as an example of how software should be made, the key parts of it were written in long uninterrupted stretches of work. Thinking up good solutions similarly is a focused work activity, and meetings are almost entirely unsuited to thinking of great solutions that cover all the edge cases (although they can be ok for thinking of good enough solutions).

Now, to understand the problem to be solved, to agree on a solution being proposed (out of the results of focused work), and to synchronize the progress when multiple people are working on said solution, this does require communication, and meetings are often a good way to do this. They are therefore essential to enabling the long uninterrupted stretches of work to produce great outcomes, but they must not come at the expense of that focused work.

Re: How did I get so unhappy working in tech?

#135

Post by nicoburns » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 10:53 AM UTC

jrs235 wrote: post #129

jayde2767 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I view the daily standup as a way to communicate status to a Product Owner/Project Manager/SCRUM Master who may have to communicate status to a larger "Standup of Standups", if you will. I agree that a high quality team communicates with each other often and status amongst them should not be necessary, or require a daily scheduled time.

Standups aren't supposed to be status reports. They're supposed to be huddles (to determine the plan of action). Want "status"? Look at the "xyz board". Blockers? That's important. Communicating any blockers that need to be addressed. That can be an email. And shouldn't have to wait until the next huddle. You can waste hours waiting. Communicate blockers immediately synchronously (interrupting) or asynchronously (non…

Perhaps not, but a 10-minute daily face-to-face status update isn't so bad. Some thing can't be clearly communicated via a project board. Blockers shouldn't wait until a standup, but a standup can be a useful failsafe. It means that a quick sync up happens at least once a day.

Re: How did I get so unhappy working in tech?

#136

Post by BlargMcLarg » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 11:01 AM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #103

watwut wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sight. I cant refuse agile ceremony while working employment in that company. I can leave the job for non-agile one or make myself fired. However, the combination of "being in one of those majorities of companies that believes in agile" and "not being in these meetings" is not available. If your point is "then put up your resignation", then yes it is available. I am not a serf. That is not however what the "I cant do…

However, the combination of "being in one of those majorities of companies that believes in agile" and "not being in these meetings" is not available. I hear this from lots of developers. I also hear that none of them have ever raised the problem with their management, or attempted to suggest that they could submit notes instead when they have a lot of other work on, or anything that would reduce the number of meetin…

>I also hear that none of them have ever raised the problem with their management

I have. TL;DR: My managers effectively gaslighted me. "You don't understand agile" despite them being incapable of reciting the agile manifesto and not even knowing what does/doesn't belong to Scrum. "Oh but there has to be some communication", despite my argument clearly not being "there should be no communication". "You're not a team player", despite working together just fine outside those windows. It was an experience which effectively achieved nothing while wasting my time and emotional investment.

That's not to mention the obvious: a lot of managers have ulterior motives to keep the status quo.

>Practically all developers just coast along believing that because that's how things are it's impossible to change anything.

For the most part, that echoes my experience with a lot of companies. The majority don't want change. The majority don't have the power to change things alone. A lot of people don't know any better, and are afraid of the unknown. They have a positive experience with "Agile/SCRUM" because it's marginally better than what they had, even though they can't pinpoint exactly what attributes to their improved situation, leading to pointing the entire package as a big plus.

This really shouldn't come as a surprise either. You can introduce retrospectives and whatever; most companies are still top-down hierarchies at heart. The majority of people learn from a young age not to rile things up, and the IT crowd is definitely not known for being rebellious towards those in power. The entire thing points towards waiting for some people in power to try something different, or for individuals to try their own luck at entrepreneurship.

NB: I don't fault people for liking this or wanting this. The bigger problem is how quickly the far majority of companies force feed the entire development team this way of working, leaving almost no place for the people who don't want to work this way. If you don't like it, good luck finding something that isn't highly Agile/SCRUM/meeting-oriented or at risk of becoming that in the near future. It's the same thing with remote work, asynchronous work, non-standard work hours, you name it. It's the incessant need for a one-size-fits-all approach which to this day is questionable at best.

Re: How did I get so unhappy working in tech?

#137

Post by chiefalchemist » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 11:03 AM UTC

Leadership and management too fond of dehumanizing makers. Maybe it's from "we pay you well so we want to get our money's worth? IDK. But too often I've heard someone say "team" in an environment that's anything but.

Re: How did I get so unhappy working in tech?

#138

Post by 5350-uiop-1130 » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 11:07 AM UTC

DarkCrusader2 wrote: post #115

throwaway6532 wrote: post #3

I feel ya man. This is exactly where I'm at. Left one job because the company burnt me out, but I was still a passionate engineer. Eight months in to my current company I feel the flame I once had for engineering is all but extinguished. Starting to interview for a new job now and every option I evaluate I feel like I already know the BS that's waiting for me there and I just don't want to go through it. I'm trying t…

I have been having similar thoughts recently. With just 4 years into my career (working at a FAANG for last 2), I too am looking around for a job. But it all looks the same corporate BS, providing "business value", grinding for promotion, being a small cog in a enormous machine, dealing with middle managers and their egos and endless insecurity, estimations and deadline chasing, I feel so done and tired. Add the bull…

same, i'm in a job where i can sort of coast, it's stressful, the people mostly, but the work is easy.

i lost interest in dealing with all the bs and whenever i try to look at the job market i just feel too demoralised to go through all the hoops just to get another job where i will be dealing with the same or new kind of bs.

i feel like this may be my last coding job after 15 years, maybe i can do another 2-3 more.

Re: How did I get so unhappy working in tech?

#139

Post by yason » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 11:07 AM UTC

ipaddr wrote: post #44

As someone who has been in the industry for 20+ years I've noticed changes that may have lead to this point. Daily standups, meetings, gluing frameworks Daily standups are is a one size solution to a communication problem. Daily standups shouldn't be necessary with a team constantly communicating. Daily standups leads to cutting projects into small daily tasks. This leads to a system of micromanagement and it doesn't…

Meetings on Monday only. A lot of wasted time on Mondays anyway (how can be it be that your mind adapts to the weekend's free time in a minute but takes hours to drudge itself back to "work mode" after the weekend?) and that leaves the rest of the week for programming.

Programmers do talk about stuff informally anyway if and when the need arises, often via asynchronous messaging or even face-to-face but those aren't meetings in the sense that they adapt to the programmer flow and not the other way around.

Re: How did I get so unhappy working in tech?

#140

Post by goodpoint » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 11:16 AM UTC

throwawayboise wrote: post #14

creakingstairs wrote: post #13

I _know_ I have it really good. But I still feel unhappy and unfulfilled. I'm planning to have a sabbatical next year to see how that pans out for me. I honestly don't know how my parents worked until retirement.

Cognative dissonance because we know we are obscenely overpaid to build stuff that nobody really needs, while others work themselves into disability for a order of magnitude less pay doing things that are essential for civilized life.

Better: *some* are obscenely overpaid to build stuff that nobody really needs

Some are obscenely underpaid to implement crucial software e.g. Boeing MAX, medical diagnostic stuff, industrial automation, FOSS libraries like OpenSSL, research tools, etc.

The correlation between social utility and income is... interesting.