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Heresy

paulgraham.com

941–950 of 1001 posts

Re: Heresy

#941
post #919

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_Stat... just sayin'. maybe 1985 sucked a lot for a lot of people that weren't paul graham.

The idea is to make things not suck. Not to make them suck in the same way for different groups of people. Have you considered the possibility that oppressing gay people and firing people with unpopular opinions are both wrong and should be opposed?

One still happens today and has received zero essays from PG, despite it still being an issue in the tech community, and the other doesn't actually happen.

Re: Heresy

#942
post #919

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea is to make things not suck. Not to make them suck in the same way for different groups of people. Have you considered the possibility that oppressing gay people and firing people with unpopular opinions are both wrong and should be opposed?

One still happens today and has received zero essays from PG, despite it still being an issue in the tech community, and the other doesn't actually happen.

> In 2020, Shor was fired by Civis Analytics after tweeting a summary of an academic study about protests by Omar Wasow, a black political scientist at Princeton University. Shor's tweet read "Post-MLK-assasination race riots reduced Democratic vote share in surrounding counties by 2%, which was enough to tip the 1968 election to Nixon.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Shor

There’s one example of many of a thing that supposedly “doesn’t actually happen”.

Re: Heresy

#943
post #257
post #10

When you say or do socially unacceptable things, there can be consequences. Is that “heresy”? I always associated that word with religion, myself, but it’s interesting that religion is so out of favor right now that you can use it as a comparison to argue that any action not explicitly illegal should be free of negative consequence.

> Is that “heresy”? Depends on whether you get put to the stake for this socially unacceptable thing. At some point it was socially unacceptable/heresy for a woman to float when thrown in a pond.

That actually never happened, much like cancel culture it's a myth made up by people trying to sell books.

Re: Heresy

#944
post #750

I was nodding along up until this: > The clearest evidence of this is that whether a statement is considered x-ist often depends on who said it. Truth doesn't work that way. The same statement can't be true when one person says it, but x-ist, and therefore false, when another person does. [2] I think there is a ton of nuance that contradicts this. For example, a white, upper-middleclass college graduate could proclai…

You're just demonstrating PG's point exactly: that the x-ism depends on who says it even though it has no relation to truth. You didn't even try to argue once that the statement is less true when a white graduate says it. The most you can say is one "might be considered" x-ist and affects a vague "value judgement". What does "might be considered subtly racist" have to do with truth? You're technically correct, the fi…

But in this case one can be true and one can be false. If you imagine a world where either situation is true, then the context changes the truth of the statements.

Re: Heresy

#945

I think this is an important part: "Fortunately in western countries the suppression of heresies is nothing like as bad as it used to be. Though the window of opinions you can express publicly has narrowed in the last decade, it's still much wider than it was a few hundred years ago. The problem is the derivative. Up till about 1985 the window had been growing ever wider. Anyone looking into the future in 1985 would…

I like to point out the Sedition Act of 1918 here. About 100 years ago, a law that literally made it a crime to criticize the government was not only enacted, but upheld by the courts. Can you even imagine that today? What people are finally noticing now is that non-government entities can also have negative impacts on free speech. They're not noticing because it just started -- e.g. lots of folks lost their jobs for…

> Can you even imagine that today?

Try to give in UK an opinion regarding the State of Israel not matching the Pro-Israel lobyy diktat and you will find yourself in trouble. Ask Jackie Walker.

Re: Heresy

#946

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither was fired for work performance. I think anything else is a distracting justification, not a reason. James Damore was fired by a mob who boldly proclaimed "I didn't read his manifesto. I didn't have to". None of these firings were for honest reasons, but all just to appease the mob. A mob who at least in the last case didn't bother to even find out what he said. There are many more examples. I could list them…

There are many reasons outside of work performance to fire people. For example: someone who lies on their resume, then does a generally good job. That's generally a fireable offense in isolation from performance (though hopefully not as an automatic decision). You assert that the two I named were fired from public pressure, but that looks to me like self-confirmed speculation based on what you want to believe. Were I…

> There are many reasons outside of work performance to fire people. For example: someone who lies on their resume, then does a generally good job. That's generally a fireable offense in isolation from performance

Ok. "Work performance" may be too narrow in its obvious interpretation. What I mean is "quality of performance of your duties". Lying to your employer legitimately reduces trust that you'll continue to be able to perform your duties.

But let's say someone goes to private sex parties in their own time, full of consenting adults. That has nothing to do with your performance at work.

> You assert that the two I named were fired from public pressure, but that looks to me like self-confirmed speculation based on what you want to believe

Do you believe they would have been fired if this had not been made public?

You're right that I don't have proof, but I think my position here is self-evidently true.

> If the essay had actually named a figure like Damore, would it have been more convincing?

I think PG feared it would derail the discussion to just be about Damore. That his whole essay would be dismissed by large sets of people as merely "A Damore defence", without reading neither it or Damore's "manifesto".

And exactly as his essay describes it would be dismissed as x-ist, to shut down debate.

So… yes and no. It would be clearer, but risk being less effective in achieving his goals.

Also less timeless, which he explicitly mentions as a goal.

Re: Heresy

#947
post #942

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One still happens today and has received zero essays from PG, despite it still being an issue in the tech community, and the other doesn't actually happen.

> In 2020, Shor was fired by Civis Analytics after tweeting a summary of an academic study about protests by Omar Wasow, a black political scientist at Princeton University. Shor's tweet read "Post-MLK-assasination race riots reduced Democratic vote share in surrounding counties by 2%, which was enough to tip the 1968 election to Nixon. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Shor There’s one example of many of a thing…

"In 2020, 8.9% of employed LGBT people, including 11.3% of LGBT employees of color and 6.5% of white LGBT employees, reported being fired or not hired because of their sexual orientation or gender identity."[1]

Your dude david who "serves as head of data science with Blue Rose Research" is barely a blip.

[1] https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/lgbt-wor...

Re: Heresy

#948

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither was fired for work performance. I think anything else is a distracting justification, not a reason. James Damore was fired by a mob who boldly proclaimed "I didn't read his manifesto. I didn't have to". None of these firings were for honest reasons, but all just to appease the mob. A mob who at least in the last case didn't bother to even find out what he said. There are many more examples. I could list them…

> James Damore was fired by a mob who boldly proclaimed "I didn't read his manifesto. I didn't have to". I assure you, the vast majority of us who criticized him read his writings quite thoroughly.

Maybe. I too only have anecdotes about it.

I saw several senior leaders (in industry and in the mob) say exactly what I quoted.

And privately I asked several angry people "did you read it?". Most said no, and some came back later saying "yeah that was not actually what they told me it was".

Re: Heresy

#949

> The reason the current wave of intolerance comes from the left is simply because the new unifying ideology happened to come from the left. This is an (aggressively?) conventional idea that I have an (I guess) heretical opinion about. I'm somewhat persuaded that there is a recent outbreak of intolerance for differing ideas and ideals (though I suspect every generation expresses a version of this opinion as they get…

Another take on this particular question (that I found much more interesting) https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/22/right-is-the-new-left/

Re: Heresy

#950

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like to point out the Sedition Act of 1918 here. About 100 years ago, a law that literally made it a crime to criticize the government was not only enacted, but upheld by the courts. Can you even imagine that today? What people are finally noticing now is that non-government entities can also have negative impacts on free speech. They're not noticing because it just started -- e.g. lots of folks lost their jobs for…

I think the comparison you drew is interesting. Restrictions to free speech used to be in place to protect the Most Powerful - the Kings (still do - in places where there are kings), The Party, even The Government (in places where democracy is but a sham) In Western democratic nations, new restrictions to free speech are being considered to protect the Most Marginalized - the most weakest, most discriminated against,…

I still sense you advocating for coercive equity policies in your comment; i.e. redistribution of power from the slightly more fortunate to the slightly less fortunate but on a whim and flimsy excuses and without due process, because let's pretend for a moment that people at the very top; the one percenters would be affected by this cancel culture nonsense, it's always middle class people and every once in a while, a member of the upper middle class get devoured by the SJW monster and that's it.

This whole crusade is just a charade.

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