I decided to move away from big tech for my children and myself • Hacker News Board

Re: I decided to move away from big tech for my children and myself

#91

Post by antisinguIarity » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 9:38 AM UTC

hans1729 wrote: post #47

mathieuh wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think children will be more successful at outwitting nefarious companies' behavioural scientists than adults are? It is widely acknowledged that companies are successfully applying methods of grabbing and retaining our attention in order to sell us things, so I'm a bit cynical that children, already not renowned for impulse control, will be any better than adults in ignoring that.

The earlier they make their experiences, the earlier they can develop a mature response to abusive stimuli - if taught about the nature of those stimuli . I'm not advocating for giving developing brains blind access to predatory products. I'm advocating to teach them a healthy-as-possible relation with them. And the reasons adults suck at this is just that: because we were never taught to deal with it, because our sc…

>because our schools curriculae are in complete disconnect of the world we've built within the last 40 years

I'd be very curious to know if any of the tech-based education programs being rolled out at a rapid rate include any material on the dangers of technology and social media addiction.

Re: I decided to move away from big tech for my children and myself

#92

Post by rglullis » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 9:38 AM UTC

2000UltraDeluxe wrote: post #49

jaspax wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious about this peer group in which failure to have a cellphone results in "complete and utter exclusion". My nieces and nephews are in this age range (10-13 yrs), and none of them have cell phones, and none of them suffer total exclusion from their peer groups. As far as I can tell, they're all socially active and popular. Apparently it's different where you live, but I would take that as a bad sign on severa…

Even teachers use Whatsapp to communicate with pupils nowadays. Here in Finland, from 13 and up, it's pretty much total social exclusion and severely reduced ability to participate in school work if you don't have a smartphone. Teenagers without phones is pretty much uneard of, apart from in some religious circles. The thing about those teenagers is that they rarely meet outside school. Covid made damn sure parents a…

> > Even teachers use Whatsapp to communicate with pupils nowadays.

There are messaging platforms that are not dependent on Big Tech. If communication via group chat is so key to the school operations, parents are more than entitled to ask the school to implement a proper platform for it.

> Covid made damn sure parents are somewhat paranoid about social contacts, and having people over is still pretty rare.

That is your first-order problem to solve.

Giving kids a smartphone as a substitute for proper social interaction is a terrible band-aid.

Re: I decided to move away from big tech for my children and myself

#93

Post by KptMarchewa » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 9:38 AM UTC

Freak_NL wrote: post #4

As a parent (of a kid fortunately nowhere near this age) I get this, but I also don't see a way out. You don't want your kid to be that kid who doesn't have a smartphone when all of their peers do. Being socially excluded was the bane of my life in school, and I'll be damned if I'm going to be a contributing factor to my child becoming a pariah. I do wish that more parents (and society in general) would be more sensi…

>Being socially excluded was the bane of my life in school, and I'll be damned if I'm going to be a contributing factor to my child becoming a pariah.

As someone who had similar experiences, thanks for letting your children be in control of at least some part of their lives. You're doing the good thing.

Re: I decided to move away from big tech for my children and myself

#94

Post by rglullis » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 9:40 AM UTC

Freak_NL wrote: post #85

lrvick wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a teacher could not figure out how to communicate with a kid without routing those communications through Facebook servers, I would kindly teach them how e-mail, matrix, or other neutral internet protocols work. Honestly -most- of the time I tell people I don't have a phone they say something like "That is super cool, I wish I could do that. My phone has ruined my life. How would you prefer we keep in touch since…

> If a teacher could not figure out how to communicate with a kid without routing those communications through Facebook servers, I would kindly teach them how e-mail, matrix, or other neutral internet protocols work. And some (few) would appreciate your effort, but quite pragmatically have to acknowledge that there is no way they can support a classroom full of kids with those solutions, and that even if they could,…

> This is not something that can be solved by going to individual teachers

Yes, it can. You just need to become part of the "intolerant minority" that refuses to give in. https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...

Re: I decided to move away from big tech for my children and myself

#95

Post by KptMarchewa » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 9:41 AM UTC

lrvick wrote: post #79

reader_x wrote: post #20

My 14yo daughter came home from binging 80s movies with friends and wistfully told me, “I wish I’d grown up in the 80s.” I said, “Why??” She said, “Because everything was a lot like it is now, but no smartphones.”

I have encountered multiple Gen Z people recently fascinated with retro gaming, cassette tapes, records, and 80s/90s tv/movies who expressed similar. Some are able to see their phones as addictive and are starting to look for what life was like before them. It gives me hope.

Le Wrong Generation meme is decades old.

Re: I decided to move away from big tech for my children and myself

#96

Post by teekert » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 9:41 AM UTC

littlecranky67 wrote: post #58

teekert wrote: post #2

Although I agree with OP, mostly, I probably won't be so strict on my children, I will educate them though, as I do on healthy food. But I can't stop them from getting some candy every now and then as they get more self-sufficient, and I just hope that my guidance will make them eat more than candy past age ~18. A point of note though, I never really trust these "I have no accounts and then I get a video of my son!"…

The problem is that Smartphone/Attention economy is made to be addictive. In my opinion and observation, many adults, myself included, are overusing smartphones/social media, often mindlessly scrolling through stuff to "kill time", losing focus on more important tasks. I'm just saying this stuff is dangerous even to adults, and it takes quite some discipline to manage. That is why I am unsure that "education" in that…

I agree with you, I do more useless things with my phone than I'd want.

But is limiting the solution? When they become adults, they can do what they want, what would be the best way to teach them healthy habits? I'm not convinced keeping the kids away from phones as long as possible it THE solution (maybe part of it?) We keep them away from heroine, from alcohol to a degree (although for me that started at 14-15). Maybe the state should put out stronger advice and forbid them in schools perhaps...

But we are also addicts, and I got my first phone at 17 (it was this one [0], still, sms could be pretty addictive, not much compared to what can be done now). So that didn't really work. Maybe what we really see as problematic will become normal over time? I mean, looking at a small screen is not nice, but if it's in your glasses or VR? At least it is less bad for posture and eyes. It will perhaps be more addictive even, so immersive... Maybe overtime we'll get to evolutionary pressures even, you can get most things you want in VR except food and procreation... Or can we, man where are we going...

[0]: https://www.gsmchoice.com/en/catalogue/ericsson/gf768/galler...

Re: I decided to move away from big tech for my children and myself

#97

Post by KptMarchewa » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 9:41 AM UTC

aa-jv wrote: post #35

The answer to any technology-oriented problem is better communication . I had problems with my kids use of social media - until I involved myself in it with them, so that I could see the things they were learning and enjoying. And then, having established the reality of their world, I communicated with them about my concerns - the tracking, the groupthink, the dangers of online interactions with strangers. Most impor…

Thanks for being a good parent.

Re: I decided to move away from big tech for my children and myself

#98

Post by KptMarchewa » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 9:43 AM UTC

soco wrote: post #30

bjarneh wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I may or may not go as far as putting a custom cert on the phone so I can monitor all the traffic -- that will depend on if I catch them violating my trust. You are going to spy on you kids if they violate your trust, what does it take to violate your trust; visit a website that you don't like? How will your kids ever trust you again, if they find out you're spying on them for possible trust-violations?

You can land in shady internet places very well also unwillingly, so it's less about "trust" and more about plain "protection". And the OP made it clear it's not a covert operation, the kids know it's the rule of the game.

Helicopter parenting has been shown to be orders of magnitude more damaging than any potential "dangers" out there.

Re: I decided to move away from big tech for my children and myself

#99

Post by paskozdilar » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 9:44 AM UTC

aa-jv wrote: post #35

The answer to any technology-oriented problem is better communication . I had problems with my kids use of social media - until I involved myself in it with them, so that I could see the things they were learning and enjoying. And then, having established the reality of their world, I communicated with them about my concerns - the tracking, the groupthink, the dangers of online interactions with strangers. Most impor…

This is (IMHO) a very good approach.

Most parents don't realize how little control they actually have over their kids' lives. If a parent doesn't provide a consequence-free communication channel with a child, the child will quickly learn that communication leads to punishment and will refuse to communicate.

Re: I decided to move away from big tech for my children and myself

#100

Post by samhw » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 9:44 AM UTC

rglullis wrote: post #50

Freak_NL wrote: post #4

As a parent (of a kid fortunately nowhere near this age) I get this, but I also don't see a way out. You don't want your kid to be that kid who doesn't have a smartphone when all of their peers do. Being socially excluded was the bane of my life in school, and I'll be damned if I'm going to be a contributing factor to my child becoming a pariah. I do wish that more parents (and society in general) would be more sensi…

As someone also with two young kids, my hope is to instill the idea that they can and should use the internet for their own expression and communication, but that they need to do it with tools which puts them in control, and not the other way around. There are "indie web" alternatives to the big social networks which everyone can use. Social networks without the algorithms that make you doom scrolling, messaging apps…

> do not gamify karma-whoring

Christ, I'm not really on the 'complain about social media' train, but this resonates with me so much. The way people pose and mug for upvotes on Reddit - or mortifiedly delete their comments when they get some downdoots – is, well, it's self-abasing. I can't believe the effect it has on people. For kids I can only imagine how destructive it would be, in the already insecure and reputation-centric environment of school.

I don't know what the solution is. I believe it lies _broadly in the direction of_ better clients, rather than different networks. The latter is a fool's errand. The former is still hard, but at least practicable on one's own: to find or create [apps / web clients / browser extensions / etc] which don't surface the karma component as much.

HN is a good example of that: it still has upvotes and downvotes, but the design (especially not showing you others' downvotes, beyond binary indicators of positive/negative) centres them much less. It's an illustration of how you can substantially reduce this through frontend changes alone, without needing to change the core logic of the product.