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Heresy

paulgraham.com

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Re: Heresy

#731

Post by d--b »

At some point one has to ask about the coincidentality between the rise in “heresy” (since he calls it that way) and the rise of social media platforms and new technology in general.

It’s one thing to complain that it exists, and another to discuss the roots of the phenomenon and how to address it.

Yes, I am implying that the guys at Silicon Valley with all their non-evil intentions are a major part of the problem. That the incentives of making money off data collection somehow got aligned with creating mobs of think-alike people who suddenly felt empowered to just shut everyone out of their bubbles.

Ask people to stay off facebook and twitter, Paul. Or are you in too deep?

Re: Heresy

#732

Post by Ensorceled »

Biologist123 wrote: post #678
sicromoft wrote: post #657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This essay was somewhat high on opinion, somewhat low on evidence That's putting it mildly. It's littered with straw men and other logical fallacies. He asserts, without any proof (because it's a faulty generalization that can't be proven), 'when someone calls a statement "x-ist," they're also implicitly saying that this is the end of the discussion'. He then wastes a bunch of time explaining the implications of hi…

I do tend to read his essays when I see them circulating and I must confess that I find them fascinating. I’ve wondered if Graham himself doesn’t entirely understand why he’s been so successful or what he’s achieved in creating - and indeed whether he’s aware of the deficit. When future historians of our increasingly interesting and shocking epoch are trying to work out what happened, I feel Graham’s essays will prov…

This is an incredibly useful viewpoint to apply to this essay.

As the person you are responding to, I also dismissed it as fallacy ridden bullshit written by someone who is upset that rich and/or conservative people are facing consequences for having odious beliefs and stating them publicly, but this lens of understanding their delusions is a better approach.

Re: Heresy

#733

Post by causality0 »

freebuju wrote: post #719
atoav wrote: post #640

> For example, when someone calls a statement "x-ist," they're also implicitly saying that this is the end of the discussion. I tried to recall the few times I called someone out on being sexist, racist or whatever, and it was never a discourse or a discussion: the majority were tasteless jokes in the presence of someone would have been affected (e.g. tasteless joke about how all women are $X in the presence of a wom…

It may be too late to have the kind of conversations you are envisioning with young people raised in this generation. They have conjured up big words and terms that don't even mean anything in the practical sense and will easily take offense with anything or anyone about whatever values they strongly identify with. This is the generation that needs (and sometimes demands that) their spaces online be protected from an…

That's one of the more depressing parts. Even the people I agree with never engage with the actual argument of their opponents. For example, I'm pro-choice. The people who are anti-choice believe that abortion is the murder of a child. The people who agree with me, however, never engage with that argument. They just point out ways in which the anti-choice people are sexist or otherwise hate women. Similarly, the anti-choice people refuse to engage in discussions about body autonomy. A similar pattern is reflected in almost every other contentious political issue. Factions don't argue with each other, they just talk at right angles as loudly as possible.

Re: Heresy

#734

Post by alanlammiman »

jimkleiber wrote: post #508
Osmose wrote: post #258

The behavior he's calling "heresy" here cannot be evaluated in a vacuum; these kinds of statements are all contextual, ESPECIALLY hinging on who is saying them. And the reason that is the case is because the consequences of saying something are different depending on who says them. Paul Graham is wealthy and influential, and actively tries to influence folks with essays like this. So when he says something, it is jud…

I read it as he wants pushback—that he wants to engage in a back and forth discussion, almost like two people in a fight pushing each other, not a fight where people push each other for a minute and then the other pulls out a gun. I understood his definition of heresy as a tool for wanting to end debate, not deepen it.

Well, to take the analogy a step further, if you go out on the street and start pushing people around, and one of them pulls out a baseball bat and beats you to a pulp, should you really complain that they didn't just push back? Nope. You just had it coming, and if you are such a macho street-fighter you should accept you got owned that time.

Sure, if you were in a dojo practicing martial arts - an environment that is safe where engagement has clear rules and often a judge - then it's a fair point to make. So if you are in a very specific context that is intended and structured for open and fair debate (e.g. a debate club), that's a fair argument.

That begs the question of whether a university is such a place. Undoubtedly some of it is. But I do not think all of the university, all of the time, is. Just as going into a gym and doing a judo throw on someone in the middle of their yoga class is not right, even if the gym has judo classes.

Re: Heresy

#735

Post by evocatus »

pkulak wrote: post #10

When you say or do socially unacceptable things, there can be consequences. Is that “heresy”? I always associated that word with religion, myself, but it’s interesting that religion is so out of favor right now that you can use it as a comparison to argue that any action not explicitly illegal should be free of negative consequence.

Let me dust off my copy of the Malleus Maleficarum.

Re: Heresy

#737

Post by alanlammiman »

zarzavat wrote: post #345

This is one of the best reasons to learn a second language. Heretical concepts are often wrapped in layers of euphemism. For this reason, heresies tend to have problems crossing language barriers as that structure of euphemisms hasn’t necessarily been developed. One of the properties of the euphemism treadmill is that the mere existence of softer alternatives makes the original seem much worse than it was before. Spe…

I have worked as a translator and interpreter, and I agree. I have often found translation to be a great way to reveal sloppy thinking that is hiding behind a turn of phrase. I promised myself that if I were ever became important enough to publish things read by lots of people, I would be sure to translate them even if it weren't necessary, as a way to review them.

Re: Heresy

#738

Post by goto11 »

Beltalowda wrote: post #155

I think this is an important part: "Fortunately in western countries the suppression of heresies is nothing like as bad as it used to be. Though the window of opinions you can express publicly has narrowed in the last decade, it's still much wider than it was a few hundred years ago. The problem is the derivative. Up till about 1985 the window had been growing ever wider. Anyone looking into the future in 1985 would…

Censorship is much more visible in modern social media because it happens after the publishing. Somebody publishes something, and then the platform reviews the material and decides to block it. In print media the filtering happened before material was published. Newspapers only print a tiny fraction of the "letters to the editor" they receive, but it doesn't feel like censorship.

Re: Heresy

#739

Post by alanlammiman »

derevaunseraun wrote: post #658
zarzavat wrote: post #345

This is one of the best reasons to learn a second language. Heretical concepts are often wrapped in layers of euphemism. For this reason, heresies tend to have problems crossing language barriers as that structure of euphemisms hasn’t necessarily been developed. One of the properties of the euphemism treadmill is that the mere existence of softer alternatives makes the original seem much worse than it was before. Spe…

Something that's really interesting: if you are bilingual read the wikipedia of the non-English language. Especially topics that are more controversial. A lot of the controversies we talk about in the US are very specific to the English language

Well, it doesn't help that Wikipedia doesn't actually have a single canonical version that is translated, but rather versions that are independently managed by separate communities and therefore diverge significantly

Re: Heresy

#740

Post by ss108 »

faichai wrote: post #659
ss108 wrote: post #563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We just had 4 years of an identity politics Republican president (which party has totally succumbed to its idiotic, tribalist, identity-driven, populist base, discarding a lot of good conservative ideas and values in the process), so your spin on this as being "entirely the current thing wrong with the left" is disingenuous. Dems are holding the line far better, though they too will fail, and the progressive wing wil…

The left has already gone too far, in my view. From a free speech perspective the right seems to be more pro-principle and less identity-based cancellation hysteria, but they do so on the back of white, Christian nationalism and rampant hypocrisy which is a slightly different problem than heresy as per the original article. Calling me disingenuous a bit of a reach.

...so you agree that the Republican Party has morphed into an outright White, Christian nationalist, identity-based party, but think that identity politics on the left is somehow worse?

I would say "disingenuous" is on point here.

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