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Do the Real Numbers Exist?

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31–39 of 39 posts

Re: Do the Real Numbers Exist?

#31

Do integers exist? Do sequences of integers exist? If they do, so do the real numbers. This is because any positive real number has a decimal expansion which determines it. For example pi = 3.1415926535... or 1/3 = 0.3333333...

Do infinite sequences of integers exist? Especially all the ones that can't be compressed into a finite description? I don't think that's clear at all.

Re: Do the Real Numbers Exist?

#32

Real numbers are abstractions. And abstractions are embedded in Physics. So if you believe that Physics is real then Real numbers are also real .

I'm pretty sure (although definitely can't prove) that all solutions that come up in physics are computable numbers which is a countable subset of the reals.

Re: Do the Real Numbers Exist?

#33
Would anyone or anything do anything differently if they did or did not exist? The same people would still write insisting they do or don't, regardless, because nobody could tell.

If there is no need for them to exist, Ockham's Razor says we should not assume them.

Suppose they don't exist, then what are we talking about? We exist, and we do stuff (such as writing blog posts). So, numbers -- all numbers -- are stuff we do. And write about.

They don't need to be more than that. We don't need them to be more than that. If we did, we would be out of luck, anyway.

Re: Do the Real Numbers Exist?

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Abstractions are emergent properties of the laws of physics.

The “laws of physics” are mathematical models (abstractions) created by humans. And those abstractions are embedded in the physical world (our brains, written text, magnetic disks etc.)

Right, that's also roughly what I default to (because Platonism seems to have more unnecessary complexity/hypotheses). The actual nature/ontology of abstractions isn't entirely (or at all) solved by that (e.g. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/abstract-objects/).

Re: Do the Real Numbers Exist?

#36
post #29

If I understand correctly, the problem is not so much real numbers, but real number that are not otherwise defined(integers, rational numbers, floating point numbers, etc) call them pure real numbers. Because while it is easy to imagine there are numbers that are not defined, the minute you try define what they are... they are now defined, thus the problem/paradox, can something exist that is not defined?

Real numbers are defined by properties, usually, and it’s just a “I say these things exist” then.

For example, axioms of real numbers state that increasing bounded sequences have a limit, and it is a real number. It could be that this leads to some contradiction somewhere which we don’t know about.

For example, if you erroneously thought that rational numbers in fact themselves satisfy these axioms, you could construct an increasing sequence whose squares converge to 2, and yet the sequence itself doesn’t converge to a rational (because sqrt(2) is not rational). Perhaps some such contradiction exist for real numbers, and in that respect they could “not exist”. That would mean the axioms are somehow inconsistent.

As the article states, we can construct real numbers with Dedekind cuts that only rely on rationals; I didn’t realise there is any nuance to that definition.

Re: Do the Real Numbers Exist?

#37

You don’t seem to have a clear definition of what exists is

Agree. It's difficult to guess the definition of "exist" while reading it. The phrase

> ...accepting the existence of the reals means that there are numbers that exist but can never be described ...we can never interact with these numbers even conceptually

is also full of vagueness: what is "be described"/"interact"?

Re: Do the Real Numbers Exist?

#38
I only "believe" in the computable numbers - that can be defined by an algorithm at arbitrary precision.

That includes all rationals along with irrational that we have a way to approximate by algorithms - like sqrt(2) and PI. It does not include the incalculable numbers like Omega.

Being linked to algorithms, such numbers are only countable many, so they cannot contain "most" of irrational and therefore they lack most of "Real numbers".

There are mathematicians that take this view seriously, like "Constructivists" and "finitists". For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REeaT2mWj6Y

Re: Do the Real Numbers Exist?

#39
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The subset of numbers for which you can compute successively better approximations, such as pi and e, is countable. It’s called the set of computable numbers and contains everything that we could even in theory ever describe or “use” somehow. The actually uncountable subset of reals is by definition forever out of our reach, which is what makes uncountable sets… rather ontologically suspicious.

This is a matter of opinion. I do not find anything ontologically suspicious about uncountable sets. What I would really found ontologically suspicious would be the existence of convergent sequences of numbers without a limit or the inexistence of continuity, e.g. the impossibility of knowing whether moving from one side of a curve to the other side of the curve will intersect the curve or not. Even if most programme…

Limits work just fine without dealing with infinity. When you do an epsilon delta proof, you only ever deal in the finite. You can also have continuity while only dealing in finite constructions.

The real numbers are a very convenient abstraction, but they are also a leaky abstraction (edit: when paired with axiom of choice), which is anathema to mathematics.

We can still study the real numbers, they are still valid in some abstract sense, and they are convenient, but an element of the set of reals minus computables can never be constructed, so you'll never actually need to deal with them.

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