Live data from Hacker News

Heresy

paulgraham.com

231–240 of 1001 posts

Re: Heresy

#231
post #11

This thing where people want to say horrible things without consequence is just so weird. I have the right to judge your statements just as much as you have a right to say them. I have the right to leave jobs when it turns out the people working there hate people like me, and companies have the right to hire people who aren't going to alienate future potential employees. When people bring up posts like this they neve…

1) Whenever people call it the "Don't Say Gay" bill, I ask them if they've read the text of the bill. So far it's like 0-8.

2) I think you're conflating two different groups of people to make your argument sound better. I don't like cancel culture and I don't like the Florida bill either. People aren't just "ignoring" it.

3) > denying the existence of people who aren't like them

This is such a weird, vague statement and I have no idea what it means - which is great because it perfectly captures the mob mentality of the far-left cancel culture. The reason everyone is so afraid of it is because you never know exactly what you can say, and it changes by person by day.

In my professional experience, even "acknowledging the existence" of trans people is a minefield. The term to describe someone who is transitioning has changed like four times in the past five years and using the outdated term is considered wildly offensive. Certain people think changes of pronouns should be handled differently and if you disagree with them you eventually get a meeting invite from your supervisor called "Discussion".

Speaking of hostile work environments...

Re: Heresy

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should probably go look at the current state of diagnosis and treatment of gender dysphoria before giving your hot take. If caught and treated early, gender reassignment surgery can work miracles on a child's quality of life. It really shouldn't be seen any differently than other treatable birth defects.

The left’s current position is that puberty blockers should be available to all kids until they can decide what gender they want to be. They claim there are zero (0) irreversible side effects to puberty blockers. No drug has no side effects, least of all one that inhibits puberty. Letting a kid make a choice like that - one they can’t possibly understand the consequences of - is worse. Saying we’re doing it so that t…

> The left’s current position is that puberty blockers should be available to all kids until they can decide what gender they want to be.

That couldn't be further from the truth as possible.

It is the right constantly saying they should be 100% banned, with the other side wants more nuance in the discussion.

You'll sure find some wackos with this position to use as a strawman, but that's definitely not "the left". I'm left, and I don't know anyone saying it.

TL;DR: You're projecting.

Re: Heresy

#233

We live in New Middleages. Just substitute religion for ideology and suddenly it all makes sense.

No it isn’t. Nobody is literally losing their life over this.

they only burned a few witches, back when. It wasn't that big a deal...

Re: Heresy

#234
I like Paul and am very sympathetic to this essay. But I want to make some points that may subvert his thesis, in the hope that we can nuance things a bit, hopefully in an interesting way.

1. Some things may be true (or at least potentially true) but not appropriate to point out in a given social situation. Example: "Avi did a good job on this project in part because of his Ashkenazi Jewish heritage, which conferred a genetic intelligence advantage." This could be true, it has some scientific support, but it seems to be not a good idea to say. It would probably still not be a good idea to say even if we definitely knew it to be true. A person who habitually says things like this might reasonably risk reputational and professional consequences.

2. Paul says there are more heresies than in decades past. Is that true, or are they just different?

3. Are there some things that should be heresies, like arguing vigorously for the legalization or destigmatization of adult-child sexual relationships? Don't those things provide some insight into why people might see themselves as legitimate in making X-ism a heresy?

Will add more as I continue reading.

Re: Heresy

#235
post #18

> I've deliberately avoided mentioning any specific heresies here. Which, looking at the replies, is a mistake, because everyone projects the least charitable interpretation and/or assumes the article is dog-whistling. The problem is that there are heresies and heresies, and conflating everything together isn't helpful. To give one extreme of a "heresy": It's reasonable to not want to associate with someone if they'r…

If it’s a dog whistle it’s the loudest one I’ve ever heard.

Beginning of the actual framing of the issue:

> There are an ever-increasing number of opinions you can be fired for.

> For example, when someone calls a statement "x-ist,"

Is there any genuine confusion what he’s talking about here? How many commonly used words fit the “x-ist” framing?

I mean he’s a white pontificating boomer billionaire active on Twitter worried he’ll eventually say something dumb and get cancelled.

Which, indeed, is a concept that’s having a cultural moment right now. The problem is he’s adding literally nothing to the discussion.

I think most sane people can realize that the fringe “woke” elements of the discourse can veer into ridiculousness. Maybe that matters a lot maybe it matters a little I dunno.

To the extent there’s an actual problem here it’s really focused on those who are potentially at actual risk.

Examples of actual problems that could be created by excessive wokeness include the increasing degree to which HR is able to divide and control the most vulnerable elements of the labor force, or the highly cynical ways in which jargon laden intersectional language is used to obscure a hegemony of corporate and wealthy donor interests over leftist or activist organizations.

Would be interesting if he had opinions on that.

But instead we’re again talking about how the most powerful economic forces in our culture are being trolled on Twitter. That isn’t an actual fucking problem. Like really it isn’t.

PG is clearly a very smart guy. I’ve read his books I want to like him. Sure is a terrible pity he’s not spending his twilight years being introspective about the horrifying legacy of inequality and misery that’s been inflicted on society by the tech sector, where he has an actual ability to have a positive influence.

Re: Heresy

#236

I think what's missed is that most of the extreme, even if common, cases of people demanding heretics be punished, are really just trolling. Trolls are continually pushing the boundaries, and institutions are afraid to stand up to them for fear or being labeled heretical (ironically) so we have this feedback of more and more ridiculous stuff that nobody actually believes becoming mainstream. By fighting it the way PG…

The evidence doesn't support your view that SJWs are "just trolls". A lot of SJWs genuinely believe that cancelling people for espousing wrong view is a real force for good. And they have some superficially good reasons for that belief. Trolls will use any weapon they can, so it's less interesting to debate them (except, maybe, about the nature of sadism).

Re: Heresy

#237
> For example, when someone calls a statement "x-ist," they're also implicitly saying that this is the end of the discussion. They do not, having said this, go on to consider whether the statement is true or not.

I’ve been asking, practically begging people, to comment on the accuracy or inaccuracy of my statements than the way it makes them feel.

Looks like Paul Graham wishes for this too.

Re: Heresy

#238
post #18

> I've deliberately avoided mentioning any specific heresies here. Which, looking at the replies, is a mistake, because everyone projects the least charitable interpretation and/or assumes the article is dog-whistling. The problem is that there are heresies and heresies, and conflating everything together isn't helpful. To give one extreme of a "heresy": It's reasonable to not want to associate with someone if they'r…

The article isn’t flawed; it perfectly shows PGs evolving right leaning viewpoints. I used to understand where he came from when he originally started to argue about women in tech, but the new things he says, can’t stay with them anymore.

You’re trying to divide two types of heresies because you don’t want to acknowledge the truth, there’s no two types just a sliding scale of offensiveness. You want there to be repercussions for some heresies (overt racism and homophobia?) while others should be let to slide by. But there’s no inherent difference between the two types. PG is smart and acknowledges that, but decides there should be no repercussions as long as you state facts. I and I suppose many on the left would say there should be. As long as it’s not the government that’s doing the banning in public forums people need to shut up about their rights. What’s special about the government? As PGs friend Thiel eloquently put, government is a monopoly on violence, it stands to reason the only entity that shouldn’t have the authority to shut your opinions and voice is the entity with the monopoly on violence.

But I guess once you’ve stayed rich and influential for long enough you’re annoyed at this one remaining domain where you can’t just have everything you wanted yet so you want to change the rules to let you do the same. That’s what people like Thiel and now sadly PG are trying to do. They don’t care about any real issues, they just want to spend time blasting wokeness and actively sabotage all of humanity (in Thiels case) because I don’t know what their endgame is.

Re: Heresy

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's one: I don't believe that gender identity is a valid concept. Does that make for a hostile work environment or "deny the existence" of anyone? I submit to you that the answer is no, except for die-hard adherents of the new ideology. Well, that simply isn't my religion, and I resent attempts to force it on me.

s/gender/religious/g and see how well things go down.

Difference being that you cannot see what someone’s religion is, nor are there only two variations.

Re: Heresy

#240
post #18

> I've deliberately avoided mentioning any specific heresies here. Which, looking at the replies, is a mistake, because everyone projects the least charitable interpretation and/or assumes the article is dog-whistling. The problem is that there are heresies and heresies, and conflating everything together isn't helpful. To give one extreme of a "heresy": It's reasonable to not want to associate with someone if they'r…

> Which, looking at the replies, is a mistake, because everyone projects the least charitable interpretation and/or assumes the article is dog-whistling.

I think this is actually the big problem in the debate, not "cancel culture" or "heresies". A lot of people seem gleefully enthusiastic about seeing the worst in other people. This is not isolated to just one ideological side: people on the right engage in it just as much as people on the left.

I've started to seriously dislike "dog-whistling". Often it's "yes, what they're saying is looks fine on the surface, but I know their actual secret motivations!" Yes, things like "14/88" and whatnot really are "dog-whistling" and it's fine to call it out as such, but 9 times out of 10 I see it used today it's weird assertion about someone's motivations. It's essentially a straw-man argument with extra steps (allude to a far more extreme position than what was stated, and then attack that).

Sometimes this goes so far I wonder if I somehow don't understand the English language correctly, or ... something. Many times I see people commit a "heresy" it's something fairly mild – or even completely benign – taken to far more extreme levels than what it seems to mean on the surface.

In this specific article it seems clear to me that Graham isn't defending tosspot Nazis or other overt "x-ists", yet here in the comments we have people who seemingly take this to mean that Graham is defending folks who say that "people with different skin colors are dumber" and similar things. You can read that in his essay, I suppose, but only if you come at it with a certain attitude.

Once you eliminate the "this person is x-ist, let's find arguments to support it"-attitude the whole "heresy" problem goes away, too. I haven't the foggiest how to actually do that though.

Post reply on HN