Heresy • Hacker News Board

Re: Heresy

#111

Post by pfortuny » Sun, Apr 10, 2022, 3:06 PM UTC

i000 wrote: post #93

rs_rs_rs_rs_rs wrote: post #53

Quoted post unavailable.

Yes, calling out a group of people an "insane concept" is a form of hostility. The existence of trans people (and children) both at the social and biological (even genetic) level is quite beyond doubt. One might disagree and discuss how to help and live alongside those people, but labeling them an "insane concept" is not a worthy contribution tho this discourse.

“quite beyond doubt”, and there you are. The conversation just finished. You are right, the rest are wrong.

And that’s that.

Or is it?

Re: Heresy

#112

Post by UncleMeat » Sun, Apr 10, 2022, 3:06 PM UTC

Aeolun wrote: post #86

tedivm wrote: post #11

This thing where people want to say horrible things without consequence is just so weird. I have the right to judge your statements just as much as you have a right to say them. I have the right to leave jobs when it turns out the people working there hate people like me, and companies have the right to hire people who aren't going to alienate future potential employees. When people bring up posts like this they neve…

I don’t think people want to say bad things without consequence. They want to be able to discuss a topic without the rabid tone police descending on it. Like, I say I cannot understand trans people at all , and people will jump on me because I’m rejecting them and making them feel bad, when I’m just stating a fact. There’s a lot of this stuff.

“I don’t understand it but I’ll trust their feelings and the recommendations of their doctor” is very different from “I don’t understand it so I’ll call them mentally ill, misgender them, or insist that legislation prevent access to medical care”.

Re: Heresy

#113

Post by thesuperbigfrog » Sun, Apr 10, 2022, 3:06 PM UTC

shadowgovt wrote: post #37

tedivm wrote: post #11

This thing where people want to say horrible things without consequence is just so weird. I have the right to judge your statements just as much as you have a right to say them. I have the right to leave jobs when it turns out the people working there hate people like me, and companies have the right to hire people who aren't going to alienate future potential employees. When people bring up posts like this they neve…

I think Graham's essay conflates two phenomenon when he describes heresy as thought that people equate to a crime. In fairness to him, societies have conflated them also. But if we're talking about modern American society, they are fundamentally different but can smell the same to somebody who doesn't see the distinction. A heresy is a position that damages trust. When someone publicly espouses a heretical position,…

>> nobody is going to jail for their heretical opinions. They can have privileges revoked or be passed over for promotion or advancement, but that's how organizing people to do hard things has always worked.

That's because no trials are held in modern mob justice for heretics. The mob justice punishments are more like lynchings.

Medieval heretics could at least expect a "witch hunt"-style trial. The monarchy or church was the authority and there was a semblance of rule of law.

Modern heretics face mob justice by self-appointed vigilantes and mob justice punishments. The lack of due process is concerning.

Re: Heresy

#114

Post by jleyank » Sun, Apr 10, 2022, 3:07 PM UTC

Aeolun wrote: post #86

tedivm wrote: post #11

This thing where people want to say horrible things without consequence is just so weird. I have the right to judge your statements just as much as you have a right to say them. I have the right to leave jobs when it turns out the people working there hate people like me, and companies have the right to hire people who aren't going to alienate future potential employees. When people bring up posts like this they neve…

I don’t think people want to say bad things without consequence. They want to be able to discuss a topic without the rabid tone police descending on it. Like, I say I cannot understand trans people at all , and people will jump on me because I’m rejecting them and making them feel bad, when I’m just stating a fact. There’s a lot of this stuff.

I can’t understand bigots at all, particularly things like language. Yet Quebec is full of them.

Re: Heresy

#115

Post by micromacrofoot » Sun, Apr 10, 2022, 3:07 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #23

mmastrac wrote: post #4

What I find most interesting are those arguing against "cancel culture" and the revival of heretics don't find issue with things like the "critical race theory" boogeyman and the "don't say gay"-style bills preventing teaching of sexuality topics. It's interesting how consistency of free thought isn't really the important thing here.

It's not "don't say gay", it's "don't subject, expect or mandate young kids to learn stuff about things like sexual orientation (or even gender identity) that they cannot possibly relate with prior to the biological changes of adolescence, and that are enough of a minefield for adults already. Leave this stuff to family and broader society for the time being."

lol no it’s not - it’s literally a vigilante system that prevents teachers from talking about reality

Re: Heresy

#116

Post by otterley » Sun, Apr 10, 2022, 3:07 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #99

vinceguidry wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should probably go look at the current state of diagnosis and treatment of gender dysphoria before giving your hot take. If caught and treated early, gender reassignment surgery can work miracles on a child's quality of life. It really shouldn't be seen any differently than other treatable birth defects.

The notion that young kids necessarily have a completely formed and stabilized "gender identity" (which is necessary for "trans kids" to even be a meaningful concept) is entirely driven by ideology. It doesn't even pass the most cursory test of plausibility.

No post body was provided.

Re: Heresy

#117

Post by edmcnulty101 » Sun, Apr 10, 2022, 3:07 PM UTC

Heresies are inherent to tribalism. Violating the tribes bigger rules gets one rejected or killed. This ties into the identity of the society.

Re: Heresy

#118

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Apr 10, 2022, 3:08 PM UTC

mmastrac wrote: post #4

What I find most interesting are those arguing against "cancel culture" and the revival of heretics don't find issue with things like the "critical race theory" boogeyman and the "don't say gay"-style bills preventing teaching of sexuality topics. It's interesting how consistency of free thought isn't really the important thing here.

[deleted]

Re: Heresy

#119

Post by bradleyjg » Sun, Apr 10, 2022, 3:08 PM UTC

fosefx wrote: post #39

baggy_trough wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's one: I don't believe that gender identity is a valid concept. Does that make for a hostile work environment or "deny the existence" of anyone? I submit to you that the answer is no, except for die-hard adherents of the new ideology. Well, that simply isn't my religion, and I resent attempts to force it on me.

It does not really matter what your stance on that topic is. If your co-workers don't what to be called a certain way, just respect that. E.g. I don't want to be called by my full first name but rather a short version of it. If you deliberately disrespect my request that is simply hostile.

Somehow Gen Z gets a free pass to refer to everyone as they, regardless of that fact that some of us would rather not be referred to that way.

The norms are not as straightforward as you claim.

Re: Heresy

#120

Post by teraflop » Sun, Apr 10, 2022, 3:08 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #99

vinceguidry wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should probably go look at the current state of diagnosis and treatment of gender dysphoria before giving your hot take. If caught and treated early, gender reassignment surgery can work miracles on a child's quality of life. It really shouldn't be seen any differently than other treatable birth defects.

The notion that young kids necessarily have a completely formed and stabilized "gender identity" (which is necessary for "trans kids" to even be a meaningful concept) is entirely driven by ideology. It doesn't even pass the most cursory test of plausibility.

Of course it's not necessary for gender identity to be "completely formed and stabilized" to be able to talk about it. Do you think it's meaningless to describe a child as "short" or "tall" because their body is still growing?