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MIT graduate students vote to unionize

thetech.com

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Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#311

Post by QuarterReptile »

mumblemumble wrote: post #121
ModernMech wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you expand on what regulations you feel are lacking and how you'd like to see them implemented?

Decent labor standards would be a start. Universities are rather analogous to sweatshops in how they operate and the economic reasons for doing so. And I suspect that, in much the same way, this state of affairs represents a sort of Nash equilibrium that cannot be significantly altered except by an outside force changing the rules of the game.

>Universities are rather analogous to sweatshops in how they operate

Could you explain further?

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#312

Post by spacemanmatt »

polygamous_bat wrote: post #290
spacemanmatt wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't graduate students there in order to get credentials that help them land all those better jobs outside of academia? I think you're imputing hiring pressure that they're pursuing, not experiencing.

Not necessarily; I myself and a lot of my friends in academia are here because we really do care about the research we are doing, and believe what we are doing here is really going to impact society in 10-20 years in the future. I'm sure there are some people here who are only doing a Ph.D. to get a better job afterwards. But at least for myself I know I rejected a job that has a 5x base salary (even without counting…

That's absolutely fair. I really should have narrowed my (rhetorical) question to the group of students who will eventually "leave for better jobs" outside academia.

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#313

Post by toast0 »

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #305
frankharv wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like a reasonable parallel. In the field of Machining most of our new folks come from one particular Community College that offers a Machine Shop with a few CNC machines. The sole instructor was a friend and would give me heads up on excellent machinists. Stanly retires and new instructor brought in. Fast forward a year and a competing companies CEO now sits on board of college. He gets all the heads ups…

Is there no grading system to refer to?

You can ask applicants for grades, but if you get heads up on good candidates, you ask them to work for you before they go looking. So if someone else is getting heads up, you're only getting candidates that didn't pass their filters.

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#314

Post by musicale »

rmatt2000 wrote: post #187
bognition wrote: post #23

I'm very curious to see what the long term effects of unionizing will be in Academia. I'm hopeful and optimistic it will improve things in the long run. Yes there will be some unintended consequences but academic life is already very rough if you're not tenured. Academia likes to cast itself as a true meritocracy. If you work hard and publish good papers you'll do well. In practice it's more of a gerontocracy where s…

Academia (in the U.S. at least) is one of the last vestiges of the old master / apprentice system.

I thought we'd gotten rid of indentured servitude, but grad students are locked into years of absurdly low pay[1] and an extremely asymmetric power relationship with their supervisors. Add in the increased risk for depression and suicide and it really doesn't seem like a great gig.

[1] Engineering students at least. Humanities students are paid just a bit less than the minimum wage they'll be earning after graduation.

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#315

Post by tomohawk »

They don't say how the election was done. Was it secret ballot, or one of the union-favored methods such as card check. The non-secret ballot methods are notorious for allowing pressure tactics to be used.

Do grad students still have a right to work without joining, or will they be forced to join?

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#317

Post by lostlogin »

_huayra_ wrote: post #54
bognition wrote: post #23

I'm very curious to see what the long term effects of unionizing will be in Academia. I'm hopeful and optimistic it will improve things in the long run. Yes there will be some unintended consequences but academic life is already very rough if you're not tenured. Academia likes to cast itself as a true meritocracy. If you work hard and publish good papers you'll do well. In practice it's more of a gerontocracy where s…

We were discussing a potential hire at work a few days ago who suddenly turned down the company's offer for another company despite our team being his "dream place to work" and promising to not make a sudden decision without talking with us first. Turns out he was basically forced to go to this other company by his advisor, who had a lot of funding from this other company, or his advisor would "make graduating very d…

Surely a resignation upon graduation is the way to go here - though burning bridges early in one’s career is not ideal.

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#318

Post by tomohawk »

mac-chaffee wrote: post #59

The lack of protections for graduate student workers is shocking IMO, especially in student housing. Grad student workers of course don't get paid vacation, sick time, or anything like that. But you can't even just lower your hours since you're paid with a fixed stipend. Contracts may be largely 20 hours per week, but they have all kinds of carve-outs where the university can force you to work up to 30/40 hours, like…

Universities are subject to very little oversight and regulation.

They basically are selling a luxury good to very unsophisticated buyers (you can't get much less sophisticated than the average 18yo). A lot of what they are selling will not be worth the time or money put in.

Instead of subsidizing them like crazy, the government should be looking into their dodgy practices.

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#319

Post by DoughnutHole »

lumost wrote: post #284
DoughnutHole wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're also in an era where groundbreaking research is seldom done by lone unicorn researchers expanding on a stroke of genius. The Nobel Prizes are still awarded to individuals but often only because that's how Nobel decided the prize had to work over a century ago. Prizes are most of the time awarded to the heads of research groups who's discoveries are made of the backs of dozens of researchers and graduates often…

> Newton could see so far from standing on the shoulders of giants, the modern researcher can see so far from standing on the pyramid of overworked untenured researchers. On the flip side, is this partially responsible for the declining productivity of science? We're effectively tying brilliant new talent to the whims of elders. ultimately as anyone who runs a large organization will tell you - you aren't going to ge…

I don't really know if there's a way it could diffused - the reality on the ground is that cutting edge science requires cutting edge resources, and since advances are made on the margins major breakthroughs require knowledge across so many areas that one person can't possible be a specialist in everything involved. Both of those aspects mean most major research requires a significant concentration of resources to even be feasible.

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#320

Post by leetcrew »

selimthegrim wrote: post #86
cowsandmilk wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Protect students from advisors who want them to work 100 hour weeks. 2. Get dental insurance for the students. Almost no US graduate school offers this.

Dental insurance is a scam.

not necessarily. most plans seem to be pretty bad at covering major work, but every plan I've had has paid out more for my two yearly cleanings than I pay in premiums, making it a no brainer.
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