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Spreadsheets Are Hot–and Cranking Out Complex Code

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Re: Spreadsheets Are Hot–and Cranking Out Complex Code

#61

Post by UncleOxidant »

narush wrote: post #6

Warning: I'm a founder working in the spreadsheet space, so take the rest of my this comment with a (large) grain of salt. I've written before [1] (HN and elsewhere) about how I think spreadsheets are the most popular programming paradigm ever, we just don't talk about it much. As this article mentions, there are many ways we can push this forward. I personally think the most powerful low-code spreadsheet tools we ca…

Another direction here is reactive notebooks where when you change one field in the notebook all of the dependent fields are automatically updated. Pluto.jl for example [1]. It has the feeling of a cross between a Jupyter notebook and a spreadsheet without looking like a spreadsheet.

[1] https://github.com/fonsp/Pluto.jl

Re: Spreadsheets Are Hot–and Cranking Out Complex Code

#62

Post by theptip »

motohagiography wrote: post #31

I've learned products designed to replace spreadsheets have a huge hurdle because the people who use spreadsheets treat operating the sheet as their job. Replacing them removes their autonomy and control over an information process, and subsumes the value they bring to their employers - so they will resist products that threaten that. Excel is a complete management subculture. The other advice I give is if you are ge…

I think there is scope to replace Excel, but it’s hard. You’re seeing a gradual spread of “data science” tools in finance, as the more technical analysts start to use Python over Excel. But as you say, the management layer still uses Excel to poke and prod a model.

I think that there will be a generational shift here - you are not going to train an SVP to use Python, but the next generation of SVPs might have more exposure and be willing to use Numpy in a Jupyter notebook.

And in the other direction - there is definitely scope to come up with an “Excel isomorphic” Python framework for data science. It’s fairly easy to generate an Excel sheet from Python computations, but maintaining bi-directionality is Hard, and would require restrictions on the Excel side. I think with the right UI, you could do this though.

Re: Spreadsheets Are Hot–and Cranking Out Complex Code

#63

Post by [deleted] »

cm2187 wrote: post #60
motohagiography wrote: post #31

I've learned products designed to replace spreadsheets have a huge hurdle because the people who use spreadsheets treat operating the sheet as their job. Replacing them removes their autonomy and control over an information process, and subsumes the value they bring to their employers - so they will resist products that threaten that. Excel is a complete management subculture. The other advice I give is if you are ge…

Another way to see the same problem is that the IT system replacing the spreadsheet will take a long time to build and replicate the process in the narrowest possible way. Then something changes, updating the system will be an uphill battle that will take years fighting for budget and prioritisation, and you have to revert to spreadsheets.

[deleted]

Re: Spreadsheets Are Hot–and Cranking Out Complex Code

#64

Post by OzCrimson »

sys_64738 wrote: post #48

People always want to reinvent the spreadsheet with their latest whizzbang solution without a problem. But Excel solves 80% of the common problems so nobody really cares.

YUP! And too often a company claiming to have something better than Excel isn't a direct equivalent. It's a way to market their whizzbang solution.

Domo was claiming it could get companies off of spreadsheets. But it turns out that they're an enterprise level reporting system that's a minimum of $30,000. That's not a viable option for a 5-person non-profit, but they'll get swept up in the conversation only to find out later that no, Domo and Excel are not equivalents.

Re: Spreadsheets Are Hot–and Cranking Out Complex Code

#65

Post by civilized »

theptip wrote: post #62
motohagiography wrote: post #31

I've learned products designed to replace spreadsheets have a huge hurdle because the people who use spreadsheets treat operating the sheet as their job. Replacing them removes their autonomy and control over an information process, and subsumes the value they bring to their employers - so they will resist products that threaten that. Excel is a complete management subculture. The other advice I give is if you are ge…

I think there is scope to replace Excel, but it’s hard. You’re seeing a gradual spread of “data science” tools in finance, as the more technical analysts start to use Python over Excel. But as you say, the management layer still uses Excel to poke and prod a model. I think that there will be a generational shift here - you are not going to train an SVP to use Python, but the next generation of SVPs might have more ex…

I have a colleague who is a PhD in Applied Math. Pretty bright guy, huge Python/Jupyter lover with many years of experience. Loves to use git, loves to write dozens of unit tests. A true Man of the Future, according to Excel haters.

He wrote some Python to solve some mildly complex business problem. I told him to translate it into Excel for stakeholders. He did, and the answer came out completely different.

It turned out he had made multiple catastrophic errors in the Python. This is not the first, second, or third time this has happened.

Python, and tech-beyond-Excel in general, just isn't the silver bullet software types often seem to think it is. Even experts sometimes seem to do a worse job in it than in Excel.

Re: Spreadsheets Are Hot–and Cranking Out Complex Code

#66

Post by newbie2020 »

Been thinking about this problem for a long time. I use python/jupyterhub notebooks for our data analysis flows at work. I’ve become an expert at it and am a go-to person in our org… but even still when I have to try something new on “small” amounts of data, I _still_ go to excel first. It’s barrier to get the results you want os extremely low - thus-far unparalleled by any other software I’ve used in the last 20 years… and I have a hard time seeing anything that would replace that (though maybe I am just set in my ways…)

Re: Spreadsheets Are Hot–and Cranking Out Complex Code

#67

Post by OzCrimson »

bliteben wrote: post #22
datalopers wrote: post #16

Excel users tend to do a far better job of data storage, analysis, and forecasting than most of overpaid SaaS-reliant "modern data team" (Data Engineers, Data Analysts, Analytics Engineers, Data Scientists).

It definitely is a scary business proposition for them to improve Excel and awaken the 800lb gorilla. Microsoft is certainly capable of improving Excel in ways that might even improve the productivity of the entire world. Seems like some of these startups are likely just giving training to future Microsoft employees.

Excel is constantly being improved. Are you aware of Power Query? And how about the 14 news functions that were released to Insiders a few weeks ago? Excel Online is far behind the desktop version of Excel but it's making fast progress.

Re: Spreadsheets Are Hot–and Cranking Out Complex Code

#68

Post by technofiend »

cm2187 wrote: post #60
motohagiography wrote: post #31

I've learned products designed to replace spreadsheets have a huge hurdle because the people who use spreadsheets treat operating the sheet as their job. Replacing them removes their autonomy and control over an information process, and subsumes the value they bring to their employers - so they will resist products that threaten that. Excel is a complete management subculture. The other advice I give is if you are ge…

Another way to see the same problem is that the IT system replacing the spreadsheet will take a long time to build and replicate the process in the narrowest possible way. Then something changes, updating the system will be an uphill battle that will take years fighting for budget and prioritisation, and you have to revert to spreadsheets.

Plus the gap between a spreadsheet and an application can be huge in a large organization. No one needs a permit-to-build process or ci/cd pipeline to start a new spreadsheet and make changes to it.

Re: Spreadsheets Are Hot–and Cranking Out Complex Code

#69

Post by pwnna »

civilized wrote: post #65
theptip wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is scope to replace Excel, but it’s hard. You’re seeing a gradual spread of “data science” tools in finance, as the more technical analysts start to use Python over Excel. But as you say, the management layer still uses Excel to poke and prod a model. I think that there will be a generational shift here - you are not going to train an SVP to use Python, but the next generation of SVPs might have more ex…

I have a colleague who is a PhD in Applied Math. Pretty bright guy, huge Python/Jupyter lover with many years of experience. Loves to use git, loves to write dozens of unit tests. A true Man of the Future, according to Excel haters. He wrote some Python to solve some mildly complex business problem. I told him to translate it into Excel for stakeholders. He did, and the answer came out completely different. It turned…

I love both spreadsheets and Python/Jupyter. But neither is Excel the silver bullet? The reason the error is caught (and the real lesson) is more because he tried to reproduce his work as opposed to a particular technology stack.

Re: Spreadsheets Are Hot–and Cranking Out Complex Code

#70

Post by catgary »

civilized wrote: post #65
theptip wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is scope to replace Excel, but it’s hard. You’re seeing a gradual spread of “data science” tools in finance, as the more technical analysts start to use Python over Excel. But as you say, the management layer still uses Excel to poke and prod a model. I think that there will be a generational shift here - you are not going to train an SVP to use Python, but the next generation of SVPs might have more ex…

I have a colleague who is a PhD in Applied Math. Pretty bright guy, huge Python/Jupyter lover with many years of experience. Loves to use git, loves to write dozens of unit tests. A true Man of the Future, according to Excel haters. He wrote some Python to solve some mildly complex business problem. I told him to translate it into Excel for stakeholders. He did, and the answer came out completely different. It turned…

That is hardly special to Python->Excel translation, and happens any time someone reimplements a piece of software.
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