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A naked skydive inspired a way to keep pilots oriented in flight

military.com

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Re: A naked skydive inspired a way to keep pilots oriented in flight

#161

Post by AndrewOMartin »

girvo wrote: post #125
wespiser_2018 wrote: post #88

There's as similar vibro-tactile device, which is a belt you wear and always vibrates strongest in the direction of north, and over time the user would learn or improve their internal navigation. A quick search reveals a company, feelSpace, tried to bring this idea market for the purposes of navigation: https://newatlas.com/feelspace-navigation-belt/43571/ If I knew, I probably would have bought the belt for learning…

The whole idea reminds me of those people who got magnets inserted underneath their skin on their fingers so the tactile response allowed them to feel magnetic fields. It’s neat how our brains seem to rewire and adapt to new sensory input like that

There's a whole field of related experiments called "sensory substitution", and similar "brain rewiring" experiments that include wearing vision inverting goggles for extended periods.

They're all really interesting, but tricky to do controlled experiments with, and impossible to do double blind experiments with. All the papers in this area make for fascinating reading.

There's also a cool paper that shows these adaptations happen quicker than can be attributed to "rewiring". (I get that the parent used the term informally in their post, but it's important to me!)

Re: A naked skydive inspired a way to keep pilots oriented in flight

#162

Post by mlyle »

virtue3 wrote: post #146
throwawayboise wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

737MAX would not have crashed if it were being flown autonomously, as the entire MCAS system would have been unnecessary. It was there to meet regulations regarding control feel for human pilots.

You are incorrect. The MCAS system was built to work on a very buggy angle of attack sensor. They are notoriously unreliable. The max kept one on each side of the plane (the airbus equivalent has 3 on each side). Further compounded by the fact that the (this was true at the time and theyve joined systems now) pilots computer only used the left side of the plane instruments and the copilots computer only used the righ…

You call him incorrect but your comment is riddled with inaccuracies.

> only used the left side of the plane instruments and the copilots computer only used the right side

These aren't really "pilot" and "copilot" computers, but two redundant computer systems (each with redundant processors) that take turns running every other flight.

> trying to stealth fix a hardware problem (stalling at a new lower angle of attack in the "same model airplane") with software

Actually, trying to stealth fix a human-related hardware problem (stick feel and overpitching tendency, not stall) with a crappy software approach.

> And then lying through their teeth about the impact of this.

A big factor here is that runaway trim was considered a serious problem but also one that flight crews regularly train for and are tested on and are expected to handle. But MCAS gave this exam to pilots far more frequently than runaway trim had happened before and we found that crews often fail the test.

The system design didn't try very hard to prevent this occurrence, because it was thought that flight crews could handle the problem when it occurred.

> The equivalent military 737max with MCAS simply allowed the pilot to more forcefully adjust the flight control stick to turn it off. So they knew better.

It's not really the same system, and it's not a "military 737max"-- I think you're referring to the KC-46, which is built upon the 767, and has a pitch feel control system also called "MCAS" that solves a related problem but overall operates very differently.

> The entire max disaster was an attempt by management at Boeing to get pilots to be able to fly all 737s with basically no retraining.

This worsened things, but the main issue is that there is a certification requirement -- https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/25.173 -- for pilot pitch feel on climb which is hard to meet with larger engines under the wing.

Re: A naked skydive inspired a way to keep pilots oriented in flight

#163

Post by kzrdude »

Terretta wrote: post #130
kzrdude wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? Full certification of automatic piloting of a new plane type might have run into the same kind of situation - that you want to "preserve the plane type" to get to market quicker with the product. This is conjecture since we're nowhere near this yet?

> nowhere near this yet Is that sure? Autonomous cars are hard because of “surprise”. Other drivers, kids, bicycles, randomness intersecting the street that has to be dealt with. By and large, aircraft have the way cleared for them by ATC, and objects that may intersect with them tend to be on a path that is neither “came out of nowhere” nor erratic (UFOs aside!). Weather is a challenge, but autopilot deals with weat…

Surprises exist of course. It's rare but when it happens the consequences are greater than for a car accident.

Re: A naked skydive inspired a way to keep pilots oriented in flight

#164

Post by apatheticonion »

kzrdude wrote: post #105
trelane wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also because full automation means pilots, so no certifications for any aircraft types, let alone the same one. So there would be no need to force the plane to be a "737".

Why not? Full certification of automatic piloting of a new plane type might have run into the same kind of situation - that you want to "preserve the plane type" to get to market quicker with the product. This is conjecture since we're nowhere near this yet?

As someone who knows the basics of driver automation software - I would love an in-depth breakdown from an expert on the topic of aircraft pilot automation.

I'd imagine there would be a many-decade long period of overlap where pilots would observe the plane flying before the plane can fly solo.

Re: A naked skydive inspired a way to keep pilots oriented in flight

#165

Post by baq »

Beldin wrote: post #159
dylan604 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By design, a 747 pilot is a glorified bus driver that flys in a fairly straight path. Nobody talks about quick thinking until they do. Captain Sully ring any bells? That wasn't a 30k feet either. When an airliner has something go wrong, it's hundreds of people that are affected and will always make the news. By design, a fighter pilot does a heck of a lot more than a airline pilot. When a pilot does something wrong,…

> Comparing them in this manner is just disenginuous. True, a 747 pilot will have in the vicinity of 400 souls on board, while a fighter jet pilot will have 1 or 2.

Might have upwards of hundred thousand if he doesn’t complete the mission, so I wouldn’t say it’s as clear cut as you make it out to be.

Re: A naked skydive inspired a way to keep pilots oriented in flight

#166

Post by nix23 »

baq wrote: post #165
Beldin wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Comparing them in this manner is just disenginuous. True, a 747 pilot will have in the vicinity of 400 souls on board, while a fighter jet pilot will have 1 or 2.

Might have upwards of hundred thousand if he doesn’t complete the mission, so I wouldn’t say it’s as clear cut as you make it out to be.

Normally, fighter jets kill peoples...not safe them. The "could"-safe-way is not proof-able, the killings are.

Re: A naked skydive inspired a way to keep pilots oriented in flight

#167

Post by BlueTemplar »

ncmncm wrote: post #49
shuntress wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The market for people who need a non-visual device to help them detect obstacles, threats, or supply caches is too small to justify the expense (both per-unit and of development) of such devices.

Hunters complain bitterly about GPS ruining their night vision, and all those gadgets using up heavy batteries. Soldiers have it even worse, carrying, literally, pounds of batteries, sometimes tens of. Anything that works without needing to produce power-burning, night-vision destroying light they have to look at, and weighing them down, is a huge benefit.

Wouldn't they use reflective LCDs ? As low as you want brightness, and tiny power consumption !

Re: A naked skydive inspired a way to keep pilots oriented in flight

#168

Post by baq »

nix23 wrote: post #166
baq wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might have upwards of hundred thousand if he doesn’t complete the mission, so I wouldn’t say it’s as clear cut as you make it out to be.

Normally, fighter jets kill peoples...not safe them. The "could"-safe-way is not proof-able, the killings are.

Yes. They kill people piloting bombers carrying bombs, potentially nuclear, again potentially aimed at cities... sometimes you have to pick the lesser evil.

Re: A naked skydive inspired a way to keep pilots oriented in flight

#169

Post by iso1210 »

baq wrote: post #168
nix23 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Normally, fighter jets kill peoples...not safe them. The "could"-safe-way is not proof-able, the killings are.

Yes. They kill people piloting bombers carrying bombs, potentially nuclear, again potentially aimed at cities... sometimes you have to pick the lesser evil.

When was the last time an American fighter pilot shot down a bomber?

Re: A naked skydive inspired a way to keep pilots oriented in flight

#170

Post by fit2rule »

iso1210 wrote: post #169
baq wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. They kill people piloting bombers carrying bombs, potentially nuclear, again potentially aimed at cities... sometimes you have to pick the lesser evil.

When was the last time an American fighter pilot shot down a bomber?

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