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A naked skydive inspired a way to keep pilots oriented in flight

military.com

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Re: A naked skydive inspired a way to keep pilots oriented in flight

#81

Post by teachrdan »

ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote: post #27

One of the surprises I got after being locally anesthetized for a surgery, was that I could no longer localize my arm in space without looking at it. Proprioception is heavily based on the flow of air against our skin and hair. Some flowmeters are based on that principle, using a tiny mechanical hair that vibrates as air flows over it, and I've always felt robotics should just dump a whole bunch of them on their movi…

Is that really true? Anecdotally, I have no trouble keeping track of where my arm is when I have a coat and gloves on :)

I wonder if there's a side effect of anesthesia that inhibits the body's kinesthetic sense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception#Proprioception_...

Re: A naked skydive inspired a way to keep pilots oriented in flight

#82

Post by goodcanadian »

eadmund wrote: post #29
tqi wrote: post #13

> The estimated damages caused by spatial disorientation cost the U.S. military an estimated $300 million every year, along with the lives of around 30 pilots. Can that be right? 30 pilots a year sounds really high.

https://taskandpurpose.com/news/military-aviation-mishaps-de... indicates that the U.S. have had 224 deaths and lost 186 aircraft over seven years, so roughly thirty airmen a year sounds about right. I suppose one could be pedantic about pilots rather than aircrew at large, since those 186 aircraft would have had one pilot each, but the larger point still stands. Someone probably just saw the 224 number and thought e…

Not to mention that it is perfectly possible to lose an aircraft without losing the pilot.

Re: A naked skydive inspired a way to keep pilots oriented in flight

#83

Post by CobrastanJorji »

adewinter wrote: post #74
galaxyLogic wrote: post #71

> The estimated damages caused by spatial disorientation cost the U.S. military an estimated $300 million every year, along with the lives of around 30 pilots. I find it surprising that 30 pilots die every year because of this. I would think every time US loses a military plane there are some news about it on TV. But now 30 pilots dies per year only because of this? What about other causes of death? How many? US is n…

"Military aviation accidents have killed 224 pilots or aircrew, destroyed 186 aircraft, and cost more than $11.6 billion since 2013"[1] "Combined with information from the Federal Aviation Administration, an average of 383 pilots die every year in the US." [2] [1] https://taskandpurpose.com/news/military-aviation-mishaps-de... [2] https://www.skytough.com/post/how-many-pilots-die-a-year

So in this case, they are trying to say that this costs the U.S. military an estimated $300 million every year, and also kills 30 (non-military and military combined) pilots?

Re: A naked skydive inspired a way to keep pilots oriented in flight

#84

Post by throwawayboise »

tempestn wrote: post #70
sandworm101 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sully is spoken about, but not always in the best light. There is a line of though that an automated system could well have landed that aircraft. Other lines of thought blame reliance on checklists, that a quick abandonment of checklists might have been more effective. But imho the unsung hero of that incident remains the airliner, designed by human engineers, that was able to survive landing on water and remain aflo…

Those checklists exist for a reason. Far, far more incidents and accidents are caused by ignoring them than by relying on them. These planes are sufficiently complex that pilots can't come close to holding all possible contingencies in their heads; the checklists are designed specifically to allow them to react appropriately in any foreseeable situation. I'm not saying it's impossible that if they'd ignored the check…

You are correct, but the captain is ultimately the final authority how to handle anything that happens in-flight. If he or she feels that the checklist will not help, or will take too long, the decision can be made to do something else. If they survive, the captain can expect a lot of questions if standard procedures were not followed, but as they say, any landing you can walk away from is a good landing.

Re: A naked skydive inspired a way to keep pilots oriented in flight

#85

Post by peeters »

galaxyLogic wrote: post #71

> The estimated damages caused by spatial disorientation cost the U.S. military an estimated $300 million every year, along with the lives of around 30 pilots. I find it surprising that 30 pilots die every year because of this. I would think every time US loses a military plane there are some news about it on TV. But now 30 pilots dies per year only because of this? What about other causes of death? How many? US is n…

They are misquoting their own source:

> The spatial disorientation, or vertigo, suffered by the pilot is very common and causes accidents that cost the U.S. military more than $300 million and about 30 lives every year [1]

Lives, not pilots. It could be 2 pilots and 28 other service members on the same one aircraft.

[1] https://archive.seattletimes.com/archive/?date=19990606&slug...

Re: A naked skydive inspired a way to keep pilots oriented in flight

#87

Post by ad404b8a372f2b9 »

teachrdan wrote: post #81
ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote: post #27

One of the surprises I got after being locally anesthetized for a surgery, was that I could no longer localize my arm in space without looking at it. Proprioception is heavily based on the flow of air against our skin and hair. Some flowmeters are based on that principle, using a tiny mechanical hair that vibrates as air flows over it, and I've always felt robotics should just dump a whole bunch of them on their movi…

Is that really true? Anecdotally, I have no trouble keeping track of where my arm is when I have a coat and gloves on :) I wonder if there's a side effect of anesthesia that inhibits the body's kinesthetic sense. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception#Proprioception_...

A quick google search says muscles are the primary receptors in humans, before it was believed the joints played that role. From my experience with anesthesia I reckon it's a little bit of everything, with the sensation of different organs being weighed differently in the final estimation.

Unless you're in a vacuum as suggested in another comment I don't think you could draw definitive conclusions on the role of the skin from wearing a coat, the air flow might be mostly prevented but the weight and friction of your coat over the top of your arm as you move would be essentially the same input.

Re: A naked skydive inspired a way to keep pilots oriented in flight

#88

Post by wespiser_2018 »

There's as similar vibro-tactile device, which is a belt you wear and always vibrates strongest in the direction of north, and over time the user would learn or improve their internal navigation.

A quick search reveals a company, feelSpace, tried to bring this idea market for the purposes of navigation: https://newatlas.com/feelspace-navigation-belt/43571/ If I knew, I probably would have bought the belt for learning better navigation just as a fun little project!

Cool stuff! As we start to have more devices constantly around us, it will be interesting to see how haptic feedback can provide a more intuitive to our devices as we move through space.

Re: A naked skydive inspired a way to keep pilots oriented in flight

#89

Post by ensignavenger »

adewinter wrote: post #74
galaxyLogic wrote: post #71

> The estimated damages caused by spatial disorientation cost the U.S. military an estimated $300 million every year, along with the lives of around 30 pilots. I find it surprising that 30 pilots die every year because of this. I would think every time US loses a military plane there are some news about it on TV. But now 30 pilots dies per year only because of this? What about other causes of death? How many? US is n…

"Military aviation accidents have killed 224 pilots or aircrew, destroyed 186 aircraft, and cost more than $11.6 billion since 2013"[1] "Combined with information from the Federal Aviation Administration, an average of 383 pilots die every year in the US." [2] [1] https://taskandpurpose.com/news/military-aviation-mishaps-de... [2] https://www.skytough.com/post/how-many-pilots-die-a-year

That is 32 pilots or aircrew killed in military aviation accidents total per year from 2013-2020. The article claims 30 pilot die every year from spatial disorientation alone. I find it unlikely that 30 out of 32 deaths of "pilots and crew" are pilots, and also unlikely that all of these accidents are due to spatial disorientation.

(Edit- just read the source article- https://archive.seattletimes.com/archive/?date=19990606&slug... it says 30 lives, not 30 pilots... the posted article got it wrong. Even then, I have some doubts as to the number, but its definitely closer to the truth).

Re: A naked skydive inspired a way to keep pilots oriented in flight

#90

Post by dspillett »

jameshart wrote: post #62
oefnak wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but fighter jets often fly closer to the ground and change direction more often (than airliners).

At the point of closest approach, airliners fly just as close to the ground as fighter aircraft. Usually twice per flight.

In a very straight, guided, line, down an uncluttered path.

[usually, weather conditions may make things more difficult of course, and some city airports are dubiously enough placed to put the willies up your average pilot]

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