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Ask HN: Why is visual programming so popular for game programming?

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Re: Ask HN: Why is visual programming so popular for game programming?

#131

Post by thr0wawayf00 »

throwuxiytayq wrote: post #87
thr0wawayf00 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is no excuse for such errors You do realize that common mental conditions like ADHD cause people to commit these "syntax errors" in language all the time, right? What an ignorant, ableist, and frankly pathetic take this is.

I know people with debilitating ADHD who nonetheless manage to communicate more clearly and correctly than their peers. Since you're throwing accusations at random people online, are you sure you aren't dyslexic or lazy? By the way, spell checkers are a thing these days. Seriously, check it out. People you write to might appreciate the absolutely microscopic amount of effort it takes to check what you're typing.

> are you sure you aren't dyslexic or lazy?

Thank you for proving my point in one sentence, comparing those with dyslexia and those who are lazy.

> By the way, spell checkers are a thing these days.

I use spell-checkers all the time. To be honest, I think spell checkers are one reason why people complain about this in the first place because offloading the cognitive load of spelling and grammar to software inevitably means that people stop thinking in those terms and eventually lose the ability to communicate perfectly without the assistance of software. And then when that software isn't available in every input on every application, mistakes get made.

I have major problems with third-party browser plugins that read all of your browser input in order to fix your grammatical errors, so I typically don't use them in the context of HN. Since I'm writing a comment into a browser text input and not a word processor, this isn't content that I'm trying to sell or polish. It's just to communicate simply and sometimes mistakes are made. Should we always send texts in complete sentences so that our recipient fully understands the depths of our command of the language? Plus, how many times have you seen a grammar checker get it wrong? I have many times. Spoiler alert: software isn't perfect.

I would understand the argument against grammatical ticks in a context where content is paid for or traded on a professional level. When I buy a book, I expect it to be tight and free of errors. But I'm not paying to be on here, I'm here to exchange ideas, and some of the most intelligent people I've come across in my career aren't necessarily the most eloquent, polished communicators.

Re: Ask HN: Why is visual programming so popular for game programming?

#132

Post by smaudet »

echelon wrote: post #106
smaudet wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Game Engines Suck. There, I've said it. Most 'games' are in fact interactive movies, with very little game in them. That's what Game Engines enable. I'm vote we stop calling them Game Engines and instead call them Interactive Movie Engines. > The more complex parts of a game (collisions, physics simulation, rendering, asset management, networking, etc.) is handled by the game engine itself, This is and always was a B…

> There, I've said it. Most 'games' are in fact interactive movies, with very little game in them. That's what Game Engines enable. While I disagree with your argument about game engines being bad for games, you bring up an interesting point. Game engines are becoming cinematic movie engines. Right now, they're a bit sub-standard. They shouldn't be built for consumer hardware at all, but rather live in the cloud wher…

> While I disagree with your argument about game engines being bad for games

Why? How are they good for games?

My argument is that 'games' are stagnant, boring nonsense, unless you want interactive movies. What counterpoints do you think you have?

Re: Ask HN: Why is visual programming so popular for game programming?

#133

Post by giraffe_lady »

jay_kyburz wrote: post #54
oneoff786 wrote: post #12

I’m a huge fan of blueprints. A few things it does well: * makes the engine api very discoverable, which is huge. It’s a step above intellisense and auto complete. The api is likely the reason it’s so dominate in games. It’s the bulk of game programming. Visual programming isn’t very good for coding new things from scratch. * let’s you read code and clearly follow execution from start to finish. * let’s you visually…

I think you are only a huge fan of blueprints because they is no alternatives in Unreal. I think if you could compare an Unreal Lua integration to Blueprints you would reach for Lua every time. Everything you wrote is just as true for a well written text program, and untrue for badly written blueprint spaghetti!

I have been using lua a lot recently and it fucking sucks lol. The language itself is tiny and great don't get me wrong and also you can't do anything with it. What you'll need to figure out instead is whatever jank ass mutation-heavy api someone half-accidentally exposed to it from the real stack. And of course it'll be a modified lua 5.1 or some shit, possibly with some of its most powerful and flexible features stripped out.

I haven't yet run across a lua integration that was actually reasonable to use. Every time it's a choice between "just hack in what I need to but there is no way to verify I've accounted for all the edge cases and it will be fragile as fuck" or "spend dozens of hours wrapping the exposed api in a safer and more usable OO or FP interface."

Oh also I hope you like implementing build systems virtually from scratch, and also dealing with every downside of C if you need anything more powerful than prototypical inheritance.

Six months of professional lua work has really, really drilled into me that a programming language isn't shit without its ecosystem, and it's meaningless to discuss one apart from it. I haven't used blueprints but it sounds a lot better than any lua system I've worked on.

The only really fun part is you'll often come across an undocumented function that someone obviously forgot to remove or didn't understand the implications of and you'll get DEEP system access through abusing it, or even just a straight root shell. No joke.

Re: Ask HN: Why is visual programming so popular for game programming?

#134

Post by NiagaraThistle »

For me, someone who wanted to build a NES Dragon Warrior or Final Fantasy clone back in the early 90's and had no idea how games were even made, let alone owned a computer, the idea today that I can show my kids they can build a game without them needing to fully understand how to code is mind blowing.

I think that's really why it's so popular: "anyone" with an idea can sit down and cobble something together that looks like a video game. A lot of people will give up when they realize you need to know more than "drag and drop" to customize your game, but it allows a lot of people with game dreams to dive in who would otherwise simply never try because they don't know anything about programming.

Now where did I put those maps to my Fantasy Dragon Quester 2-d jrpg game?

Re: Ask HN: Why is visual programming so popular for game programming?

#135

Post by whywhywhywhy »

Netcob wrote: post #115

Before I learned how to program, I used this software called "Klik&Play", later replaced by "Multimedia Fusion". This was over 20 years ago, but apparently the software still exists and works in a similar way: For the logic, you get a table where every column is essentially a class, and each row is an if-then construct. The first column can be a condition, implicitly called once per frame, or an event with an optiona…

Klik&Play was awesome. Must have made at least 30 dumb games with it when I was around 12-13.

I definitely never got anywhere typed code wise around the same time even though I really wanted to make games, all the options just approached you as if you had a comp sci degree.

Re: Ask HN: Why is visual programming so popular for game programming?

#136

Post by xigoi »

thr0wawayf00 wrote: post #131
throwuxiytayq wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know people with debilitating ADHD who nonetheless manage to communicate more clearly and correctly than their peers. Since you're throwing accusations at random people online, are you sure you aren't dyslexic or lazy? By the way, spell checkers are a thing these days. Seriously, check it out. People you write to might appreciate the absolutely microscopic amount of effort it takes to check what you're typing.

> are you sure you aren't dyslexic or lazy? Thank you for proving my point in one sentence, comparing those with dyslexia and those who are lazy. > By the way, spell checkers are a thing these days. I use spell-checkers all the time. To be honest, I think spell checkers are one reason why people complain about this in the first place because offloading the cognitive load of spelling and grammar to software inevitably…

You must have a really weird definition of “comparing”. If I ask “isn't the elephant pink or fastº, does that mean I'm comparing pink color with speed?

Re: Ask HN: Why is visual programming so popular for game programming?

#137

Post by jay_kyburz »

mejutoco wrote: post #121
jay_kyburz wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compiling C++ is not a alternative to a game scripting language. Unreal doesn't provide first party support for any other form of scripting.

> I think you are only a huge fan of blueprints because they is no alternatives in Unreal. The original claim was there are no alternative to blueprints, not scripting languages. And, of course, c++ is an alternative. Maybe not the best, but an alternative to blueprints. In the Unreal documentation [1] we can find: - Blueprints only - C++ and Blueprints - C++ Only This is why I think it is common to mix and match the…

Ok, I will revise my statement to read "You are only a huge fan of blueprints because the only alternative is c++"

Re: Ask HN: Why is visual programming so popular for game programming?

#138

Post by jay_kyburz »

giraffe_lady wrote: post #133
jay_kyburz wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are only a huge fan of blueprints because they is no alternatives in Unreal. I think if you could compare an Unreal Lua integration to Blueprints you would reach for Lua every time. Everything you wrote is just as true for a well written text program, and untrue for badly written blueprint spaghetti!

I have been using lua a lot recently and it fucking sucks lol. The language itself is tiny and great don't get me wrong and also you can't do anything with it. What you'll need to figure out instead is whatever jank ass mutation-heavy api someone half-accidentally exposed to it from the real stack. And of course it'll be a modified lua 5.1 or some shit, possibly with some of its most powerful and flexible features st…

I find some parts of Lua quite ugly and weird. It _is_ weird to have a lists a dictionary be the same thing, but you have access them differently, pairs() and ipairs() etc ect.

And I think it would be scary to have a team of programmers coming on and off a Lua project doing things all subtly differently, even rolling their own OO for example. You would have to be very disciplined as a team.

Re: Ask HN: Why is visual programming so popular for game programming?

#139

Post by drwiggly »

fxtentacle wrote: post #101
oneoff786 wrote: post #12

I’m a huge fan of blueprints. A few things it does well: * makes the engine api very discoverable, which is huge. It’s a step above intellisense and auto complete. The api is likely the reason it’s so dominate in games. It’s the bulk of game programming. Visual programming isn’t very good for coding new things from scratch. * let’s you read code and clearly follow execution from start to finish. * let’s you visually…

Let me add one more big thing: With Blueprint, the engine team can check-in binaries into Perforce and the rest of the team can use those custom binaries and their custom APIs in Blueprint without ever having to touch a compiler. Also: Blueprints reload instantly and are easy to debug.

Can you diff them?

Re: Ask HN: Why is visual programming so popular for game programming?

#140

Post by fxtentacle »

drwiggly wrote: post #139
fxtentacle wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me add one more big thing: With Blueprint, the engine team can check-in binaries into Perforce and the rest of the team can use those custom binaries and their custom APIs in Blueprint without ever having to touch a compiler. Also: Blueprints reload instantly and are easy to debug.

Can you diff them?

Perforce usually does check out check in precisely because artists hate diffs.
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