Why the WHO took two years to say Covid is airborne • Hacker News Board

Re: Why the WHO took two years to say Covid is airborne

#311

Post by programmarchy » Thu, Apr 07, 2022, 4:35 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #307

programmarchy wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facts are carefully constructed human artifacts, not ideal platonic forms. Since they are usually formed by a consensus, or at least the appearance of a consensus, they are inherently political. The scientific method will tend to produce facts which are "eventually consistent" with reality, but since humans are involved, it's not a guarantee, especially in the short term.

> Facts are carefully constructed human artifacts Beliefs about questions of fact may be, facts are not. At least, by the usual definition of “fact”. If we’re just redefining words, sure, whatever.

I try to address the definition in another comment below (to tenuousemphasis), and would be curious to hear your response there. I would add that I think the dictionary definition raises the same issues as the colloquial ones.

Re: Why the WHO took two years to say Covid is airborne

#312

Post by disambiguation » Thu, Apr 07, 2022, 4:36 PM UTC

fivea wrote: post #298

disambiguation wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As GP states, they engaged in "noble lies" in order to drive vaccine adoption. - flip flopping on mask policy - surface transmission - vaccine efficacy - herd immunity - natural immunity - gain of function I'm not going to argue whether or not this was best course of action, because there's no way to know what the alternate reality would look like. It is however an interesting revelation about the character of our le…

> As GP states, they engaged in "noble lies" in order to drive vaccine adoption. Can you point out what was in your opinion the best example of what you described as "noble lie"? I've seen people throwing baseless accusations by misrepresenting basic guidances, such as how avoiding scarcity of personal safety equipment like latex gloves and surgical masks in hospitals was distorted into "first they state masks don't…

Natural immunity works. It's settled science, and has been for some time.

Many countries acknowledge it as a valid alternative to the vaccine. But not the USA. There has been no change in policy. Not even a public acknowledgment, let alone an apology for getting it wrong.

Is this out of ignorance? malice? Neither, it's simply pragmatic.

Reliably testing for prior infections at population scale would be really slow, expensive, and faulty. Further there's no real downside to vaccinating someone with a prior infection (slightly higher incidence of side effects notwithstanding).

Further, people will lose the urgency to get the vaccine if they think they have antibodies.

Monolithic policy is cheaper than nuanced policy, and monolithic policy only works if its dead simple. So, better to have everyone believe the vaccine is the one and only solution than to actually concern themselves with the truth.

There are also many examples of "verbatim" lies, such as these:

https://www.businessinsider.com/who-says-no-evidence-coronav...

> Moderna's chief medical officer, Tal Zaks, said last month that he believed it was likely the vaccine would prevent transmission but warned that there was not yet "sufficient evidence" of it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/01/health/coronavirus-vaccin...

> The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention on Thursday walked back controversial comments made by its director, Dr. Rochelle P. Walensky, suggesting that people who are vaccinated against the coronavirus never become infected or transmit the virus to others.

Re: Why the WHO took two years to say Covid is airborne

#313

Post by fivea » Thu, Apr 07, 2022, 4:39 PM UTC

Traubenfuchs wrote: post #218

dgellow wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which governments specifically? Also, you say that they failed to avoid panic but where have you seen some? From what I’ve seen some governments said a few incorrect or misleading things at a time where we had a lot of uncertainty and contradictory information. And then corrected once information became better. Overall western governments (I’m mostly familiar with Western Europe and the US) have been quite good at co…

Fauci, who can probably be seen as the US government, lies: https://slate.com/technology/2021/07/noble-lies-covid-fauci-... > have been quite good at communicating in the middle of a global pandemics Have they? It's a horrible back and forth, not based on any evidence. New rules are announced and rescinded a week later (e.g. Germany not ending quarantine of infected after all this week). During lockdowns, people were…

> Have they? It's a horrible back and forth, not based on any evidence. (...)

You're grossly misrepresenting the facts. If you take an objective look at recent history, you'll realize that politicians have been trying to juggle public health guidelines with economic and political topics. The bulk of these arbitrary measures result from politicians caving in to issues completely unrelated to public health guidelines.

Take for example how some countries mysteriously relaxed COVID restrictions during major public holidays like Christmas and new year's eve celebrations to afterwards hastily reintroduce additional restrictions to contain the expected hike in infection rates.

> Couples were arrested for sitting at the beach.

No they really weren't. People were charged for endangering public health by purposely violating mandatory lockdowns and social distancing requirements. Trying to frame this as punishment for sitting at the beach is like complaining that drunk driving is punishing people for enjoying a drink now and then.

Re: Why the WHO took two years to say Covid is airborne

#314

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 07, 2022, 4:41 PM UTC

disambiguation wrote: post #312

fivea wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As GP states, they engaged in "noble lies" in order to drive vaccine adoption. Can you point out what was in your opinion the best example of what you described as "noble lie"? I've seen people throwing baseless accusations by misrepresenting basic guidances, such as how avoiding scarcity of personal safety equipment like latex gloves and surgical masks in hospitals was distorted into "first they state masks don't…

Natural immunity works. It's settled science, and has been for some time. Many countries acknowledge it as a valid alternative to the vaccine. But not the USA. There has been no change in policy. Not even a public acknowledgment, let alone an apology for getting it wrong. Is this out of ignorance? malice? Neither, it's simply pragmatic. Reliably testing for prior infections at population scale would be really slow, e…

[deleted]

Re: Why the WHO took two years to say Covid is airborne

#315

Post by _-david-_ » Thu, Apr 07, 2022, 4:44 PM UTC

russellbeattie wrote: post #159

Every single event in the past decade has to be re-examined with the understanding that we have been under attack by Russia for the past decade. The WHO and the CDC were victims of their misinformation campaign, just like the rest of us. Yes, there were issues with the pandemic rollout that need to be prevented from happening in the future, without doubt. But trying to find blame for either organization, which have b…

If the WHO and CDC are just going to listen to whatever Russia says and not look into things for themselves to confirm then they are incompetent and shouldn't exist.

Also, you seem to forgetting the WHO's interesting relationship with China. You seem so anti Russia you are missing the country who actually manipulated the WHO.

Re: Why the WHO took two years to say Covid is airborne

#316

Post by fivea » Thu, Apr 07, 2022, 4:55 PM UTC

disambiguation wrote: post #312

fivea wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As GP states, they engaged in "noble lies" in order to drive vaccine adoption. Can you point out what was in your opinion the best example of what you described as "noble lie"? I've seen people throwing baseless accusations by misrepresenting basic guidances, such as how avoiding scarcity of personal safety equipment like latex gloves and surgical masks in hospitals was distorted into "first they state masks don't…

Natural immunity works. It's settled science, and has been for some time. Many countries acknowledge it as a valid alternative to the vaccine. But not the USA. There has been no change in policy. Not even a public acknowledgment, let alone an apology for getting it wrong. Is this out of ignorance? malice? Neither, it's simply pragmatic. Reliably testing for prior infections at population scale would be really slow, e…

> Natural immunity works. It's settled science, and has been for some time.

What exactly do you mean by "works"?

I mean, it's well established that those who contract COVID and didn't died from it will have a good immunity response for subsequent infections.

But that is not the point of a vaccine, is it?

The point of the vaccine is that it trains your immune system to fight an infection without undergoing the risk of a real infection. So that the odds you die from COVID are lower, if not residual.

Consequently, we see the bulk of all deaths from COVID comprised of unvaccinated individuals.

But other than all the dead, those who survive a COVID infection do end up with an immune system that is able to handle COVID.

Is that what you mean by "Natural immunity works"? That if you ignore all those unvaccinated people who died then the ones that lived through a COVID infection didn't died?

Because the whole point of a vaccine is that people don't have to die from a preventable disease, isn't it?

Re: Why the WHO took two years to say Covid is airborne

#317

Post by disambiguation » Thu, Apr 07, 2022, 4:57 PM UTC

disambiguation wrote: post #281

geysersam wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And yet political leaders will face no consequences. What consequences should they face? They are democratically elected. If the handling was indeed as terrible as you suggest I am sure they'll face the consequences in the next election.

Collins and Fauci are not elected, though Collins had the decency to step down (after holding the longest tenure ever of an NIH director).

edit above: sorry I got the tenure wrong, it looks like McGoy and Shannon were both directors for longer -- 17 and 13 yrs respectively.

Collins 12 year term is the longest in recent history, and 3rd overall.

https://www.nih.gov/about-nih/what-we-do/nih-almanac/nih-dir...

Re: Why the WHO took two years to say Covid is airborne

#318

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Apr 07, 2022, 5:05 PM UTC

giardini wrote: post #306

tenuousemphasis wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Facts are carefully constructed human artifacts, not ideal platonic forms. Is that a fact, or opinion?

tenuousemphasis says> "Is that a fact, or opinion?" I'll muddy the waters here: neither, it is a belief . I prefer to avoid the term "fact" b/c it leads to too many arguments, just as is happening here. Rather than "facts" we have beliefs and some things we believe more than others. -------------------------- "...in this analysis we shall approximate the horse by a sphere of radius r..." - physicist's monologue in jo…

That... dodges the question. One may have a belief on a question of fact or one of opinion.

> I prefer to avoid the term "fact" b/c it leads to too many arguments

Arguments are not a bad thing. Avoiding them by muddying language is a bad thing.

Re: Why the WHO took two years to say Covid is airborne

#319

Post by winrid » Thu, Apr 07, 2022, 5:10 PM UTC

unityByFreedom wrote: post #120

winrid wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also much propaganda still coming out of China that the virus started elsewhere. Which may be true, we'll probably never know for sure.

China has not permitted any investigation into the origins of the virus. And given the ease with which it spreads, and the fact that everyone was heads up about it in January, you'd think we'd have heard about a proliferation of cases elsewhere if it had begun elsewhere. That didn't happen. What we saw was a spread of cases in Wuhan, then in nearby China, then major cities worldwide. And as soon as it spread worldwid…

Thanks. I have my Chinese friends telling me that China let investigations happen at the labs in Wuhan but the US never let such a thing happen, and so on...

Re: Why the WHO took two years to say Covid is airborne

#320

Post by disambiguation » Thu, Apr 07, 2022, 5:27 PM UTC

fivea wrote: post #316

disambiguation wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Natural immunity works. It's settled science, and has been for some time. Many countries acknowledge it as a valid alternative to the vaccine. But not the USA. There has been no change in policy. Not even a public acknowledgment, let alone an apology for getting it wrong. Is this out of ignorance? malice? Neither, it's simply pragmatic. Reliably testing for prior infections at population scale would be really slow, e…

> Natural immunity works. It's settled science, and has been for some time. What exactly do you mean by "works"? I mean, it's well established that those who contract COVID and didn't died from it will have a good immunity response for subsequent infections. But that is not the point of a vaccine, is it? The point of the vaccine is that it trains your immune system to fight an infection without undergoing the risk of…

Case in point: communicating nuance is hard when no one wants to hear it!

Let me make it easy:

1. majority of infections happened pre-vaccine rollout.

2. we created a system that locked people out based on vaccine status.

3. the system should have included those with natural immunity.

/q