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Exchange electricity prices in France go through the roof

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Re: Exchange electricity prices in France go through the roof

#81
post #4

France (One year graph): https://www.epexspot.com/en/market-data?market_area=FR&tradi... Germany (One year graph): https://www.epexspot.com/en/market-data?market_area=DE-LU&tr... Now for some extra fun, overlay this with graphs over CO2 emissions.

> Now for some extra fun, overlay this with graphs over CO2 emissions. Some other fun: Overlay this with a graph of nuclear waste production.

https://twitter.com/laydgeur/status/1433463215321669633?lang...

This red cube is the entire amount of nuclear waste produced by France. And you'll never get in contact with any of it. On the other hand do you know what's filtering coal and gas particulates out of the air ? Your lungs every single day of your life

ah, and coal emits more dangerous radioactive waste than nuclear power plants, and again, your lungs are getting their fare share of it: https://inis.iaea.org/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/...

Re: Exchange electricity prices in France go through the roof

#82
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet another reason that nuclear isn't the panacea it is presented as here.

I'm French, we let it degrade, it wasn't an inevitability, it's just that since a few decades we run the country more like a lean startup (what do I need in 6 months) rather than like a nation (what will I need in 50 years) and obviously this is the exact opposite of what you want when it comes to nuclear

The alternative is your quite cheap wholesale and retail electricity prices would have gone through the roof.

Nuclear is fucking expensive.

Re: Exchange electricity prices in France go through the roof

#83
post #82
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm French, we let it degrade, it wasn't an inevitability, it's just that since a few decades we run the country more like a lean startup (what do I need in 6 months) rather than like a nation (what will I need in 50 years) and obviously this is the exact opposite of what you want when it comes to nuclear

The alternative is your quite cheap wholesale and retail electricity prices would have gone through the roof. Nuclear is fucking expensive.

I live in Germany and pay twice as much as what I would pay in France per Kwh, it's been true ever since I moved and is still true today, germany actually is the most expensive in the EU zone [0] [1]. Nuclear is both cheaper and less polluting, but I guess it doesn't matter because one dude on twitter posted a big number chart due to a temporary anomaly. Exchange prices at a specific time can be wacky because exchange prices are much more complex than just the energy sources: https://www.axpo.com/ch/en/about-us/magazine.detail.html/mag...

Ukraine + cold wave over europe + poor maintenance + electricity being bought months in advance + things like these [2] = sometimes you get crazy numbers

[0] https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...

[1] https://strom-report.de/electricity-prices-europe/

[2] https://www.connexionfrance.com/article/French-news/EDF-to-s...

Re: Exchange electricity prices in France go through the roof

#84
post #83
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative is your quite cheap wholesale and retail electricity prices would have gone through the roof. Nuclear is fucking expensive.

I live in Germany and pay twice as much as what I would pay in France per Kwh, it's been true ever since I moved and is still true today, germany actually is the most expensive in the EU zone [0] [1]. Nuclear is both cheaper and less polluting, but I guess it doesn't matter because one dude on twitter posted a big number chart due to a temporary anomaly. Exchange prices at a specific time can be wacky because exchang…

>I live in Germany and pay twice as much as what I would pay in France per Kwh

A feat achieved because France front loaded its nuclear capex. The plants they have are paid off but aging and almost at the end of their life while Germany has been ramping up new generation capacity.

Once Germany is close to 100% green energy their electricity prices will go down a lot.

>Nuclear is both cheaper and less polluting, but I guess it doesn't matter because one dude on twitter posted a big number chart due to a temporary anomaly

It's only cheaper if you already built the plants 40 years ago.

This spike is a sign of things to come. Most nuclear plants in France have about 10-15 years of life left and building a whole set of new ones will cost about half a trillion dollars and take... well, about 10-15 years i suppose. Dont think that wont get bundled into your electric billm

Of course, France could set about extending the life of these plants but that would significantly impact safety.

Re: Exchange electricity prices in France go through the roof

#85
post #84
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Germany and pay twice as much as what I would pay in France per Kwh, it's been true ever since I moved and is still true today, germany actually is the most expensive in the EU zone [0] [1]. Nuclear is both cheaper and less polluting, but I guess it doesn't matter because one dude on twitter posted a big number chart due to a temporary anomaly. Exchange prices at a specific time can be wacky because exchang…

>I live in Germany and pay twice as much as what I would pay in France per Kwh A feat achieved because France front loaded its nuclear capex. The plants they have are paid off but aging and almost at the end of their life while Germany has been ramping up new generation capacity. Once Germany is close to 100% green energy their electricity prices will go down a lot. >Nuclear is both cheaper and less polluting, but I…

The good thing is that there is an independent Authority which decides if it is safe or not to extend the lives. For once, it is truly acting as supposed, forcing the nuclear operator to make the current maintenance.

I really think that ANRS takes no risk. Almost all pieces of the oldest nuclear plants have been replaced. The pieces that can't are crucial but don't deteriorate fast by nature ; it is quite well monitored.

I'm saying that despite being 100% against the idea of building new nuclear plants.

1/ The nuclear energy has always rising costs when solar costs are plunging incredibly fast.

2/ 5 conventional missiles on each of our 56 nuclear plants and France surrenders. The risk exists but is limited of a Chernobyl-like incidents. But in all cases, the production will be stopped. So France is out of the game in half an hour. => France might launch 1 nuclear missile to an unpopulated zone in Russia (for example) as a final warning but there is no point of starting a mutual destruction. The nuclear-bomb deterrence doesn't work in such a scenario. :-/ => Our nuclear plants are both easy targets and points of systemic failure of our whole Defense.

3/ There are huge hidden costs: nobody knows how much it will cost to dismantle these plants. Recent studies by pronuclear studies say 275 billions € ; the French public operator has only 90 billions in reserve for it. In truth, nobody knows, we have never done it.

4/ They want to stock the nuclear waste deep underground. Why not, I trust Science - but the process is not reversible and that waste is dangerous for 100,000 years. In case of an unexpected issue, no way to get it out. That's not serious.

5/ Batteries are a field of constant improvement. Very recently, one type has been invented that stores the energy without almost any loss for 12 weeks (it's far from industrialization to the scale where the batteries could compensate for the irregular production of renewables). The hundred of billions needed for new nuclear plants would be a far better use if directed to the huge technological progress needed by renewables energies, hydrogen and batteries. => France has rather safe practices on nuclear matters but most countries are not even near to meet this level of safety. => Finding solutions that work everywhere without risk is the only way to avoid the global climate dereliction. => The pronuclear fanatics in France forget that even if it were the best solution for France, it is certainly not for the world. => The very same fanatics yell that we are anti-science ; no, I am pro-science and an ecologist: I have no doubt that we will make the breakthroughs needed to produce all the energy we need and to avoid unnecessary consumption.

Iran has shown that the path from a civilian use of nuclear fission to an atomic bomb is quite fast. Iran has now bomb-grade uranium concentrated at 20% ; they'll have a bomb within 5 years. And Saudi Arabia has bought a nuclear plant to France, as if they didn't have enough petroleum, natural gas and ... a giganormeous potential of solar energy. They will have the bomb as well. Great!

Putin's atrocious and unprovoked invasion of Ukraine has shown that peace is not guaranteed for ever in West Europe. Nuclear plants must be be dismantled asap.

The possibility of war closes the debate about nuclear as the best strategical choice for France: it is not.

That being said, I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the decision has already been taken, e.g. going full nuclear. This is just a matter where democracy doesn't apply in France.

No conspiracy theory here. It's not the result of lobbying, it's a matter of "raison d'Etat". The French "deep state" has its own sovereignty grounded on the centralization of electric production and the knowledge and technologies required for nuclear bombs (the bombs + the intercontinental missiles). Hence Arianespace for keeping up on the field of ballistic rockets.

Re: Exchange electricity prices in France go through the roof

#86
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I live in Germany and pay twice as much as what I would pay in France per Kwh A feat achieved because France front loaded its nuclear capex. The plants they have are paid off but aging and almost at the end of their life while Germany has been ramping up new generation capacity. Once Germany is close to 100% green energy their electricity prices will go down a lot. >Nuclear is both cheaper and less polluting, but I…

The good thing is that there is an independent Authority which decides if it is safe or not to extend the lives. For once, it is truly acting as supposed, forcing the nuclear operator to make the current maintenance. I really think that ANRS takes no risk. Almost all pieces of the oldest nuclear plants have been replaced. The pieces that can't are crucial but don't deteriorate fast by nature ; it is quite well monito…

How long does the pollution from solar panels, coal, and natural gas last?

Re: Exchange electricity prices in France go through the roof

#87
post #53
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of a graph is to illustrate a number that fluctuate and changes over time. Nuclear waste production does not. We could graph how much money Germany is funding the Russian military by buying gas, coal and oil. We could also graph how much radioactive particels get released into the environment through fossil fuel combustion. However both would just correlate directly with how much fossil fuel they consume wh…

Does nuclear relieves this pressure? Doubt so, as France buys a fair part of its uranium to Kazakhstan, which will very probably stop to supply if Putin says just a word. The US buys 50% of its uranium to them: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/exclusive-us-utiliti...

Canada has lots of uranium if Kazakhstan stops supplying

Re: Exchange electricity prices in France go through the roof

#88
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does nuclear relieves this pressure? Doubt so, as France buys a fair part of its uranium to Kazakhstan, which will very probably stop to supply if Putin says just a word. The US buys 50% of its uranium to them: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/exclusive-us-utiliti...

Canada has lots of uranium if Kazakhstan stops supplying

It may solve the problem for Canada. Maybe for the US, if there is enough supply.

Maybe even for France and Germany, but doubt so.

Moreover ore grade falls with extraction, and extraction-related emissions grow accordingly. Maybe up to 110g/ CO2-e/kWhel: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2051332

Re: Exchange electricity prices in France go through the roof

#89
post #84
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Germany and pay twice as much as what I would pay in France per Kwh, it's been true ever since I moved and is still true today, germany actually is the most expensive in the EU zone [0] [1]. Nuclear is both cheaper and less polluting, but I guess it doesn't matter because one dude on twitter posted a big number chart due to a temporary anomaly. Exchange prices at a specific time can be wacky because exchang…

>I live in Germany and pay twice as much as what I would pay in France per Kwh A feat achieved because France front loaded its nuclear capex. The plants they have are paid off but aging and almost at the end of their life while Germany has been ramping up new generation capacity. Once Germany is close to 100% green energy their electricity prices will go down a lot. >Nuclear is both cheaper and less polluting, but I…

Thanks to nuclear, France is decades ahead of us in Germany

We barely average 50% green electricity today, at 4x carbon cost of France - and that is before we try to transition heating and transport (cars) to electricity

Re: Exchange electricity prices in France go through the roof

#90
post #77
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear is the worst form of stable, non-fossil fuel energy source, except all the other ones we tried. Or do you have an alternative in mind?

It's not a simple solution, but a plan for a long-term, robust, self-sustaining world: A good mix of {solar, wind, geothermal, hydro (as storage), biomass, tidal} combined with long-range energy transmission, grid storage, energy efficient buildings, transport, city planning and industrial processes. Of course let's not close existing plants germany-style while we do it (in the next few decades), but lets not kid our…

Yes, hopefully we have unicorns in the distant future

Today and the immediate future need solutions that we can already build

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