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Ask HN: Would a universal basic income lead to inflation?

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Re: Ask HN: Would a universal basic income lead to inflation?

#81

As I understand it, basically if it is financed by taxes, or even non-FRS backed debt then probably no. This is simply redistribution of goods, so total number of goods stays unchanged. If we issue more money, it could lead to inflation, but not necessary. This is unrelated to if we spend it on UBI or not.

There are two parts to this, the increase in the money supply which devalues it and the increase in demand from a significant number of people having more money to spend in the market. If we eliminate the increases in the money supply then the increase in demand will still apply an inflationary force. Without increases in the total money supply though those forces should stabilize to match the new higher demand.

The problem is that we never eliminate the increase in the money supply and finance an incredible amount of spending through debt.

Re: Ask HN: Would a universal basic income lead to inflation?

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This answer seems to treat inflation as "the cost of everything". If, rather, we focus only on the items that are needed to survive (food, shelter, etc), I think the answer changes. The taxes to pay for the UBI will generally come from the middle and higher income households; who are already spending the money they need to on those items. Losing some of their money to taxes won't do much to reduce the amount they spe…

This is exactly why a UBI funded through a Land Value Tax is such a good idea. A land value tax taxes the land such that the market cost of the home is equal to the cost to build the housing on top of the unit. The land tax will put the land to best use, and that will drive up the supply of housing units, which means the cost to rent will go down. All of this while the average person sees lower tax rates and the pers…

> A land value tax taxes the land such that the market cost of the home is equal to the cost to build the housing on top of the unit.

To do that, an LVT would have to be calibrated so that it was enough to bring the market price of unimproved land to zero, plus (or minus, in certain market conditions) an additional amount needed compensate for dynamic supply and demand effects (lots of people wanting to move in plus building lag driving prices up above expected long-term equilibrium, lots of people moving out doing the opposite.)

> The land tax will put the land to best use,

Perhaps, but if so...

> and that will drive up the supply of housing units

...then not if housing units aren't the most profitable use of land in the local area it won't.

> All of this while the average person sees lower tax rates

Confiscatory (and the level of LVT you suggest is exactly that) taxes on land don't reduce tax rates for the average person in a country with a nearly 65% pre-policy homeownership rate.

> The money available to collect from NYC and SF land taxes alone could fund a nation-wide UBI.

No, even if that were true pre-policy it couldn't after you enacted it, because you are ignoring dynamic effects. Confiscatory taxation on land will catastrophically drive down land value.

Re: Ask HN: Would a universal basic income lead to inflation?

#83

If UBI is setup as more of a survival supplement than an amount of money desireable to live on entirely, then no. It also has to offset benefits received from other programs like welfare, unemployment to help cover the cost. IMO $700 / month is about the right number where it helps with basic needs and dry spells but isn’t so much that you’re incentivized to withdraw from the job market entirely. At the same time, mi…

None of that has anything to do with UBI and inflation. Even if you put "only" $700 more dollars in the hands of people then you increase the demand on the market by $700 per person. This will always have some inflationary force. It doesn't matter whether they buy TV's or bread.

The real question is where does the money come from. If it is permanent and comes in lieu of existing spending from money already in circulation then the inflation should be minimal. If this is new money thrown into the money supply then we'll see significant inflation from it.

Re: Ask HN: Would a universal basic income lead to inflation?

#84

If we print money to fund it, yes. If we fund with taxes without printing money, then no.

If we print money to fund it, yes. If we fund with taxes without printing money, then yes, but by less. FTFY

No matter what you do here you're increasing the demand for goods. Without an increase in the total money supply that would stabilize but there would still be some inflation because of it.

Re: Ask HN: Would a universal basic income lead to inflation?

#85
post #57

PhD in econometrics speaking, here's my handy guide to macro-economics: - The main variables of interest are (aggregate) real production / income (GDP/GDI), unemployment and inflation (arguably in that order) - Nobody knows much wrt the causes, effects and future trajectories of any of these. Not professional Ivy League economists who publish in journals like AER, QJE, JPE or Econometrica, nor traders getting paid mi…

I've had a similar feeling about economists and their writings--that there's absolutely no way to glean "truth" or "fact" from them.

They always seem to have reasons upon reasons why their predictions didn't pan out, and it's never their fault. And yet they still seem to have authority?

But I always think I must be missing something because they're so often cited and discussed and employed and and and. I am a computer person, and did not study econ beyond intro-level micro.

In your mind, do macro-economists provide any actual value? If so, what is it?

Re: Ask HN: Would a universal basic income lead to inflation?

#86
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might not be that simple. Even if UBI is funded by taxes, UBI would be a wealth redistribution, increasing money on the lower end, generally pushing up demand for goods and services that fulfill basic needs, and lowering the money on the top-end, which is spent differently, like on luxury goods, put on the sideline as savings, or spent chasing assets. This redistribution may cause inflation too, even though the ov…

It's a bizarre thought that the only way for society not to spiral into inflation requires that the poor not be able to purchase the good and service that fulfill their basic needs. Not just be handed the money through UBI as that would cause inflation, but even gain it through jobs - either way it would increase those basic need demands.

There are always two halves to this, the demand and the value of the money.

Demand steadily increases over time, a UBI would cause a spike in that demand so there would be inflation at a higher rate while the market stabilizes. Without an increase in the rate the money is devalued this inflation should stabilize. The problems come when we devalue our money at the same time we're increasing demand causing changes at a rate faster than the markets can compensate.

UBI is a shotgun approach and a political tactic rather than a real plan for helping those who need it. A negative income tax and other options that target this help where it's needed would be better options. either way though the trick is to get money where its needed without increasing debt or the money supply while doing so at a rate that doesn't shock the system.

Re: Ask HN: Would a universal basic income lead to inflation?

#87

It's possible. Nobody can say with certainty because we don't have data on a large enough scale to say for sure. But consider this: We don't have UBI, and we have historically high inflation anyway. If we're going to have high inflation anyway, maybe we should just help people.

So, you're saying that because inflation is bad we should just start printing money, handing it out and making inflation worse?

I guess a $50 loaf of bread is helpful to everyone, eh?

Re: Ask HN: Would a universal basic income lead to inflation?

#88
> Would a universal basic income lead to inflation?

Immediately adopting a non-trivial UBI, alongside any reasonable deficit-neutral funding stream, with no other accompanying policy changes, would be a transfer of net income from those currently reviewing more to those currently receiving less; it would lead to some inflation in things with greater proportional demand among the net beneficiaries and some deflation among things in greater demand among those seeing lower income after taxes and transfers as a direct result of the policy before considering any effect the change in spending patterns had on domestic velocity of money. As it would probably also slightly increase domestic velocity (increasing after taxes and transfers income across the board), one would probably expect some additional overall inflation on top of the inflation/deflation from demand shifts.

The question of whether it would lead to levels of inflation, overall or in any subsector, large enough to make it a net undesirable policy is hard to answer because:

(1) it involves subjective questions of priorities,

(2) except under the most extreme sets of priorities, it involves complex factual questions whose actual answers are very different for different formulations of the exact UBI and funding policy, and where the actual answers even given the precise policy inputs, even assuming we could isolate all other future situation changes that confound the issue, are very uncertain given the very large degree of uncertainty in predictive economic models (modern economics has some fair ideas of the direction of first order effects of some changes, and seems to in some areas provide generally useful quantitative guidance on small variations well within the historical range of experience, but beyond that... there are very good reasons to gently phase in new policies, continuously assess, and be prepared to alter course.)

Re: Ask HN: Would a universal basic income lead to inflation?

#89
post #10

It depends on what you believe about how prices are set. Many opponents of UBI claim that a UBI will cause inflation and reduce the value of money because the supply increased. Proponents reject this, pointing to MMT and the concept of fiat currency. The truth is probably in between - opportunists and highly sought-after items will raise prices to offset UBI gains, while most commodities should be relatively unaffect…

> Many opponents of UBI claim that a UBI will cause inflation and reduce the value of money because the supply increased.

So do sane proponents, the disagreement is over whether that inflation necessary negates the gains from transfers on the lower end or not.

> Proponents reject this, pointing to MMT and the concept of fiat currency.

MMT says that government spending causes inflation (and taxes causes deflation) and, moreover, that those monetary concerns, and not fiscal concerns like a need for artificial balance between revenues + debt and spending when currency is a government creation, is the only real constraint on government taxing and spending policy.

MMT is not a basis for rejecting inflation concerns about UBI; it’s a basis for rejecting deficit-based concerns.

Re: Ask HN: Would a universal basic income lead to inflation?

#90
post #57

PhD in econometrics speaking, here's my handy guide to macro-economics: - The main variables of interest are (aggregate) real production / income (GDP/GDI), unemployment and inflation (arguably in that order) - Nobody knows much wrt the causes, effects and future trajectories of any of these. Not professional Ivy League economists who publish in journals like AER, QJE, JPE or Econometrica, nor traders getting paid mi…

I've had a similar feeling about economists and their writings--that there's absolutely no way to glean "truth" or "fact" from them. They always seem to have reasons upon reasons why their predictions didn't pan out, and it's never their fault. And yet they still seem to have authority? But I always think I must be missing something because they're so often cited and discussed and employed and and and. I am a compute…

"Why Did Almost Nobody See Inflation Coming?" [https://tinyurl.com/marfwtsm]

> "Forecasting inflation is a staple of macroeconomic modeling, yet virtually all economists’ predictions for the United States in 2021 were way off the mark."

I recall reading this headline and laughing, because virtually everyone in the circles I associate with was warning very vocally about what would happen when it was announced in early 2020 that governments and central banks would be greatly increasing the money supply to pay for people to stay at home (and pay for "other" things), with no obvious sign of how productivity would be increasing. All signs were that productivity would also decrease (and it did), due to draconian lockdowns which prevented people from producing.

So why was the Austrian school exactly right about the inflation, and the Keynesians wrong again?

The reason is quite simple. Those who are the beneficiaries of new money have a motive to continue gaslighting you about the causes of price inflation.

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