Live data from Hacker News

Why the WHO took two years to say Covid is airborne

nature.com

141–150 of 404 posts

Re: Why the WHO took two years to say Covid is airborne

#141

>“We’re really talking here about two failures, not one,” says Sandman. “Being reluctant to change your mind, and being reluctant to tell people you changed your mind.” Like other public-health and scientific organizations, the WHO “are afraid of losing credibility by acknowledging that they got something wrong”, he says. Quite a good summary for the entire clusterfuck that was the pandemic response. I still cant wra…

The public health institutions in the USA have really failed us.

Covid was more of a public health blunder than a medical one. Not having a cohesive strategy, conflicting and often political messaging around gatherings, and worst of all lying to people repeatedly bc they couldn’t “handle” the truth is insane. On top of that there was and still are plenty of plans for locking down etc that have no actual metrics around them. They’re literally just feeling based.

At least the medical companies came up with a good enough vaccine to get us out of this mess.

It really feels like the public health officials and politicians to some extent view the public with contempt.

Re: Why the WHO took two years to say Covid is airborne

#142

I was the first in our office to go permanently WFH in February of 2020, three weeks before our offices closed, because I recognized that SARS-Cov-2 would be a huge problem, when pretty much everyone was in the 'just a flu/cold' mode. Here's the news that did not pass my bullshit detector: 1. Virus is not airborne (as initially claimed). I thought the water droplets claims were true for a while until I saw how fast i…

I know what you mean. For me, it was the facts that the incubation period was 10 days and the virus was asymptomatic yet infectious during that time. Of course, now we have learned that it's infectious only about the last two days.

Re: Why the WHO took two years to say Covid is airborne

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what you're saying is that because Wuhan University sent samples to be tested on the 30th of december for 'sars like virus' sorry 'atypical pneumonia' (commonly used to refer to SARS) which was posted in a forum, which Taiwan picked up and forwarded to the WHO. That Taiwan did not make the WHO aware. That there is absolutely no remote possibility that prior to the 30th, anyone could possibly be talking about 'sars…

> That Taiwan did not make the WHO aware. Huh? Taiwan did make the WHO aware. > That there is absolutely no remote possibility that prior to the 30th, anyone could possibly be talking about 'sars' in december, sorry 'atypical pneumonia', because it's not reported by the Times report or the WHO. There is no public record about this novel coronavirus, later called Covid-19, prior to Dec 31 2019. China kept it under wra…

https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/Gossiping/M.1577730263.A.177.html

> Every report on the timeline of Covid-19 marks Dec 31 2019 as the start, because that's when news about it breached China's wall. Obviously the virus itself existed prior to that. The question is, what was known when, and who knew it. Elements of China knew prior to Dec 31 2019. It only became public after that as a result of Taiwan informing the WHO.

So you don't believe it's possible, at all, for rumours to have been running around prior to the 31st, that there was a possible sars outbreak, prior to Taiwan getting some sort of evidence to submit to the WHO to request information about what's going on.

Re: Why the WHO took two years to say Covid is airborne

#144

>“We’re really talking here about two failures, not one,” says Sandman. “Being reluctant to change your mind, and being reluctant to tell people you changed your mind.” Like other public-health and scientific organizations, the WHO “are afraid of losing credibility by acknowledging that they got something wrong”, he says. Quite a good summary for the entire clusterfuck that was the pandemic response. I still cant wra…

> You dont loose credibility by acknowledging you were wrong Maybe that's how you think, but lots of people don't think that way. To a large part of the masses, experts have to be right the first time around, otherwise people lose trust in them. Many people don't understand the scientific method or that science is not about certainty but about constantly learning and adjusting. Many treat science and expertise as aut…

It shouldn't matter how you think, or how a change of opinion is viewed.

The idea is that science should be continuous discovery process - scientists are meant to be acting in good faith, not hiding or 'managing' information. If we are genuinely seeking understanding (not attempting to sell people on a particular viewpoint), why shouldn't new information be widely disseminated?

Whatever has been going on, it is clear that from the start this has been a massively politicised process directing the world's governments. That it is so politicised means that I personally have very little faith in the scientific proclamations that are handed down.

Re: Why the WHO took two years to say Covid is airborne

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We heard about 'sars outbreak in china' around xmas of 2019 That's impossible, unless you're saying after the new year still means around xmas. Taiwan discovered it on Dec. 31 2019 via a Wuhan news report about several cases held in isolation. They forwarded that info to the WHO. [1] > At 6:30 a.m. on Dec. 31, Dr. Lo at Taiwan’s CDC woke to an alert on his phone. > His colleagues in the media monitoring unit had de…

Taxi drivers in Hong Kong were telling me about some bad flu in the Mainland around Christmas. It was known in Asia far before it'd been reported in western media.

> Taxi drivers in Hong Kong were telling me about some bad flu in the Mainland around Christmas.

I guess that's possible as a rumor. I had taken the other comment to mean there was publicly verified information at that time. Perhaps we just miscommunicated.

Certainly Dr. Li Wenliang of Wuhan, who later died of covid, had told friends in a private messaging group [1] to take precautions because something SARS-like was back.

> It was known in Asia far before it'd been reported in western media.

Parts of China, maybe. I wouldn't say "in Asia" as if all of Japan, Taiwan, SE Asia knew.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Wenliang#Role_in_COVID-19_p...

Re: Why the WHO took two years to say Covid is airborne

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That Taiwan did not make the WHO aware. Huh? Taiwan did make the WHO aware. > That there is absolutely no remote possibility that prior to the 30th, anyone could possibly be talking about 'sars' in december, sorry 'atypical pneumonia', because it's not reported by the Times report or the WHO. There is no public record about this novel coronavirus, later called Covid-19, prior to Dec 31 2019. China kept it under wra…

https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/Gossiping/M.1577730263.A.177.html > Every report on the timeline of Covid-19 marks Dec 31 2019 as the start, because that's when news about it breached China's wall. Obviously the virus itself existed prior to that. The question is, what was known when, and who knew it. Elements of China knew prior to Dec 31 2019. It only became public after that as a result of Taiwan informing the WHO. So you…

Absolutely I think it's possible for rumors to have been running around given that Dr. Li Wenliang messaged his group about it as being confirmed to be a coronavirus on Dec. 30 [1]

We seem to have miscommunicated. When you wrote "We heard about 'sars outbreak in china' around xmas of 2019" I thought you meant you had heard about a confirmed outbreak reported by some reliable news source, not rumors.

What I meant to underscore was that this knowledge did not become public prior to Taiwan notifying the WHO.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Wenliang#Role_in_COVID-19_p...

Re: Why the WHO took two years to say Covid is airborne

#147
post #119

>“We’re really talking here about two failures, not one,” says Sandman. “Being reluctant to change your mind, and being reluctant to tell people you changed your mind.” Like other public-health and scientific organizations, the WHO “are afraid of losing credibility by acknowledging that they got something wrong”, he says. Quite a good summary for the entire clusterfuck that was the pandemic response. I still cant wra…

> the more they created a vocal minority who heavily drank the coolaid loosing the ability to even consider that the god like apparatus could be wrong. They’re are small vocal minorities all over the spectrum that say all sorts of crap. The WHO isn’t the only voice of “the system” though and plenty of other services and agencies recognised covid was airborne as soon as the evidence was out. Overall I think at least h…

I don’t think Britain was very successful in our public health mesures. We were far too slow to lock down and recommend masks and as a result we had twice as many deaths as comparable countries like Germany and France. Our health care system was very efficient at distributing the vaccine though and this was a great success.

Re: Why the WHO took two years to say Covid is airborne

#148
post #79

It's unfortunate that they were loud with the misinformation and very quiet with the correction.

Quoted post unavailable.

I understand the frustration with mandates and wish we didn’t have them, but also think the vaccines are sound from a medical and public health standpoint.

> the vaccine does not prevent infection or transmission

The vaccine does actually prevent infection, very well against the initial virus and moderately well against recent variants.

> It was claimed for a good year that the vaccines "protect you and the ones you love and therefore everyone needs to take it in order to meet other people."

That’s because the vaccines did a great job of preventing infection for a good year or so until newer variants came in. Protection against infection with two doses of the mRNA vaccine has dropped from something like >90% in the original trials to > Traditional vaccines contain dead pathogens that do not reproduce, while the new ones contains a mechanism that produces new pathogen.

This statement is a bit off in terms of how traditional vaccines and newer mRNA vaccines work. First, the spike protein produced from mRNA vaccines is not a pathogen. Second, mRNA vaccines do not reproduce or replicate. Third, some traditional vaccines are attenuated vaccines [1] that can actually replicate, a fact that is taken into account when they are used.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attenuated_vaccine

Re: Why the WHO took two years to say Covid is airborne

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/Gossiping/M.1577730263.A.177.html > Every report on the timeline of Covid-19 marks Dec 31 2019 as the start, because that's when news about it breached China's wall. Obviously the virus itself existed prior to that. The question is, what was known when, and who knew it. Elements of China knew prior to Dec 31 2019. It only became public after that as a result of Taiwan informing the WHO. So you…

Absolutely I think it's possible for rumors to have been running around given that Dr. Li Wenliang messaged his group about it as being confirmed to be a coronavirus on Dec. 30 [1] We seem to have miscommunicated. When you wrote "We heard about 'sars outbreak in china' around xmas of 2019" I thought you meant you had heard about a confirmed outbreak reported by some reliable news source, not rumors. What I meant to u…

In that case my wording is poor and I apologise for that, sorry.

By 'we' I meant my family and I. My wife is Taiwanese and her family said to be careful because people are saying there was a possible sars outbreak.

Re: Why the WHO took two years to say Covid is airborne

#150
post #128

>“We’re really talking here about two failures, not one,” says Sandman. “Being reluctant to change your mind, and being reluctant to tell people you changed your mind.” Like other public-health and scientific organizations, the WHO “are afraid of losing credibility by acknowledging that they got something wrong”, he says. Quite a good summary for the entire clusterfuck that was the pandemic response. I still cant wra…

"Quite a good summary for the entire clusterfuck that was the pandemic response. I still cant wrap my head about the utter spineless idiocy. You dont loose credibility by acknowledging you were wrong, you do so by lying to protect your image despite knowing better. You being wrong isnt dependent on you acknowledging it." This statement applies to the WHO, and it applies equally to China, which will wear the shame of…

I am Chinese and I was physically in China early 2020, I disagree strongly with with the narrative that China "was not forthcoming". What I saw there on the ground was totally different from Western reporting and narratives.

News about an "unknown decease" was right there on TV even as early as December 31[1]. On the same day, the news was already reported world-wide[2].

Later on, Western reporting said that China "lied about transmissibility" (i.e. that China said it was "not transmissible"), but what they actually said was that "evidence of transmissibility was not clear (at that moment)" — when knowledge of the virus was only a few weeks old and when Covid was nowhere near as transmissible as it is now.

Then later on, stories about "cover-ups" appeared, mostly referring to Li Wenliang, but these are complete misrepresentations.

- Li Wenliang was not a "whistleblower", his social media posts merely leaked through his contacts. And Li Wenliang's post was posted on Deccember 30, but literally the next day the case was already escalated to WHO[3].

- Li Wenliang also wasn't the first doctor who discovered something was wrong: dr Zhang Jixian was, who discovered the case many days before Li's actions. It was dr Zhang who worked on the process of escalating to China's national CDC and to the WHO.[4]

- Li Wenliang was never arrested, jailed or punished. The police merely reprimanded him. He had to sign an NDA promising not to spread rumors (the rumor being that "it was SARS", when it wasn't SARS and nobody knew what it was). That's it. He wasn't detained, he could go on working right after.

- Later on, the judge judged in favor of Li Wenliang, ruling that the police's behavior was unacceptable. The police then apologized.[5]

There were also stories about how China "infected the world" by deliberately allowing international flights from Wuhan — except China didn't do that, all flights from Wuhan were cancelled with the exception of diplomatic expatriation flights.

When I arrived back in the Netherlands by February 1, Wuhan had already been locked down for a week. And what did the western world do? They pretended like the virus would stay in China. Nobody took any measures to prepare for COVID. Nobody on the airport asked for my contact details. I called the Dutch CDC but there was no way to get tested, not even if I pay for it myself.

Meanwhile the media was full of stories about how "lockdowns are human rights violations", that "it's just a flu" and that "free press would have prevented this strategy". There were no "China was not forthcoming" stories back then — only stories gleeing about how big of a disaster China was. Only after it was apparent that it wasn't just a flu did the "China didn't warn us" stories began.

After it was apparently that the western "free press" failed to prevent the epidemic from spreading to their own territories (even with China's super-obvious warning of locking down Wuhan), did they take responsibility for the fact that they blamed it on China's "lack of free press" (even though China's press did report)? Of course not, they just swept that narrative under a carpet.

Then a year later, Delta appeared in India. Did anybody criticize India for not having stopped Delta despite already knowing about COVID for a year? Of course not: only if it happened in China does it deserve criticism. That China actually did report? Not important, we'll just keep pretending they didn't.

The problem isn't that "China wasn't forthcoming", the problem is that the west does not treat China fairly and has a tendency to scapegoat China. "China wasn't forthcoming" is merely an excuse to cover up the west's own failures and to stick to old prejudices about how China is a hellhole that can never do anything right.

I didn't use to care all that much about western reporting on China, but being on the ground in China during the early days of COVID opened my eyes and incensed me. It made me so angry to see all the lies in the media. It shocked me how ridiculously different reality was from western reporting.

What's more shocking to me was that I discovered that during the 25 years in the Netherlands, western media had effectively been lying to me about China the whole time. The false reporting about COVID was not a one-off fluke: I discovered that western media had always behaved that way (with other China-related topics), and will continue to behave that way. So if anyone wonders why I say things that sound like a "paid shill" (just to get ahead of the inevitable accusations just because I have a different opinion about China): this is why.

[1] http://tv.cctv.com/v/v1/VIDEZAj6WeYo0NLoxitYHgAd191231.html?...

[2] https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1YZ0GP

[3] https://www.who.int/emergencies/disease-outbreak-news/item/2...

[4] https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/trump-charges-a...

[5] https://www.telegraaf.nl/nieuws/2044252365/politie-wuhan-doo...

Post reply on HN