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Dart language

dartlang.org

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Re: Dart language

#281

Post by rufugee »

pornel wrote: post #269
rufugee wrote: post #259

I'm really surprised to see all the hate here. It's early yet guys...give them time to hone it a bit. I'm perfectly willing to live with the Java-like syntax and feel, so long as: - I can write in the same language on both the client and server side - Solid libraries exist on the server side for interaction with RDBMSes, web services, etc - Good tooling support Those of you complaining about the syntax...do you hones…

> That's the problem with things like Node today...the server side libraries are loosely documented and implemented Why would different syntax or explicit types change that? I don't think you have to replace JS to get better server-side libraries, and better language doesn't automatically give you better libraries and documentation.

I don't disagree with you. I'm simply saying that's what I'm looking for. Same language on the server and client...better libraries...better tools. If Google gets there with Dart, great! If javascript gets there, great! I'm not as hung up on language syntax, prettiness, etc (though it'd be nice). I'd rather focus on pragmatism and consistency across tiers.

Re: Dart language

#282

Post by pacala »

clownz0r wrote: post #84
masklinn wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This looks like Java for Javascript, if that makes any kind of sense. It completely does. And I love that it manages to be completely incoherent with Go, the other "Google Language". That's so symptomatic of what google does on that front.

Weird that a systems language and a web language are different, huh?

Systems language: move data from point A to point B.

Web language: move data from point A to point B.

Re: Dart language

#283

Post by bane »

zohebv wrote: post #65

From whatever little I see, I am already hating it :-) This looks like Java for Javascript, if that makes any kind of sense. We are in the year 2011, PL design has progressed so much since 1990 that such an anachronism is unpardonable. I sincerely wish that companies like Google focus on hiring the right kind of person for designing programming languages. What is frustrating is that there are so many people who can d…

In my opinion, Go is an anomaly in a company dominated by Java developers. I mean, this is a company that has gone so far as to write what is essentially a Java to Javascript compiler. http://code.google.com/webtoolkit/

I wouldn't be surprised if "performance" of the language meant "able to get our vast fleets of mediocre Java developers to write web apps faster" rather than "able to execute faster".

Re: Dart language

#284

Post by dextorious »

cubicle67 wrote: post #251
iaskwhy wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does "boring Java-like syntax" mean? Can anyone show some quick examples of a boring and a not boring syntax?

someString.append(System.getProperty("line.separator")); vs some_string += "\n" Edit: Someone's in disagreement with me, so I'll try and clarify. I'd classify boring code as code where the intent gets lost in the syntax/language or other constructs the maintainer of the code doesn't care about but are required anyway. Trying to open and read a file in Java is probably a better example as the intent (open this file an…

Well, for one you can probably make your own "+=" for strings, if not available, since Dart has operator overloading.

Also, System.getProperty("line.separator") does not translate to n"\n".

The first makes your program more portable. Of course it could be made accesible easier, eg as a constant System.NEWLINE or something.

[UPDATE] Downvote? Really? Because someone thinks "\n" is the same as "line.separator"?

Re: Dart language

#285

Post by ohyes »

I was hoping for something like the Dylan language.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dylan_programming_language

It was created in the 1990s and it still looks innovative, even compared to a lot of the new 'hot commodity' languages like python and ruby. I knew it wouldn't happen.

If a big corporation like Google put money into something like that, I think it would dominate the market.

But what they have delivered here isn't even interesting.

(The other option for something I would want would be standardized 'web byte-code', so that you just re-target a compiler back-end to emit it, and your language can be used as if it were javascript.

This is neither of those thing and I am sorely disappointed.

Re: Dart language

#286

Post by dextorious »

zohebv wrote: post #65

From whatever little I see, I am already hating it :-) This looks like Java for Javascript, if that makes any kind of sense. We are in the year 2011, PL design has progressed so much since 1990 that such an anachronism is unpardonable. I sincerely wish that companies like Google focus on hiring the right kind of person for designing programming languages. What is frustrating is that there are so many people who can d…

"Microsoft hired Anders Hejlsberg for .Net which I don't think was a good idea, he is a great engineer but not a PL theory expert."

Wow. And I thought nobody in their right minds would question Hejlsberg's chops or the work he did for .Net.

He is "not a PL theory expert"? Great. We need less of them in mainstream language design and more pragmatism.

Re: Dart language

#287

Post by pacala »

barrkel wrote: post #270
zohebv wrote: post #65

From whatever little I see, I am already hating it :-) This looks like Java for Javascript, if that makes any kind of sense. We are in the year 2011, PL design has progressed so much since 1990 that such an anachronism is unpardonable. I sincerely wish that companies like Google focus on hiring the right kind of person for designing programming languages. What is frustrating is that there are so many people who can d…

Type are indeed anti-modular - types create huge amounts of coupling across multiple module boundaries in ways that are not easy to wrap up, to componentize, if you will. If you create a module A, but the interface of that module (functions, classes, whatever you might have put in it) uses types from modules B and C, is it not anti-modular?

Designs are anti-modular. Types are descriptions of the design. They document the (anti-)modularity. Take the types away and you have the exact same anti-modular design as before.

Re: Dart language

#288

Post by dextorious »

bane wrote: post #283
zohebv wrote: post #65

From whatever little I see, I am already hating it :-) This looks like Java for Javascript, if that makes any kind of sense. We are in the year 2011, PL design has progressed so much since 1990 that such an anachronism is unpardonable. I sincerely wish that companies like Google focus on hiring the right kind of person for designing programming languages. What is frustrating is that there are so many people who can d…

In my opinion, Go is an anomaly in a company dominated by Java developers. I mean, this is a company that has gone so far as to write what is essentially a Java to Javascript compiler. http://code.google.com/webtoolkit/ I wouldn't be surprised if "performance" of the language meant "able to get our vast fleets of mediocre Java developers to write web apps faster" rather than "able to execute faster".

"I wouldn't be surprised if "performance" of the language meant "able to get our vast fleets of mediocre Java developers to write web apps faster" rather than "able to execute faster"."

Yes, because Google is notorious for hiring "mediocre developers".

Or are Java developers especially considered "mediocre" by definition?

Or does dabbling in Ruby/Python/Lisp/Closure/Scala/Haskell make you "non mediocre" by definition?

It's the skills, it's not the language.

I would like to see something with the scope, ecosystem and functionality of, say, Eclipse, written in one of the non-mediocre languages (no, Emacs doesn't come close).

Re: Dart language

#289

Post by krosaen »

It's interesting that dart provides the translator at the html level, which allows dart to support direct inclusion of dart scripts in an html page, and for one dart script to require another.

However, it seems like this would actually make it harder to package up dart script files efficiently to minimize multiple http requests; it would be nice if dart had some way of emitting a single packaged up dart file as part of the html translation process.

Re: Dart language

#290

Post by dextorious »

pacala wrote: post #282
clownz0r wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weird that a systems language and a web language are different, huh?

Systems language: move data from point A to point B. Web language: move data from point A to point B.

Airplane: move people from point A to point B.

Boat: move people from point A to point B.

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