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Dart language

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Re: Dart language

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what JavaScript is trying to be, with the latest revision. They're explicitly trying to make it a better target language for things like ClojureScript and CoffeeScript.

Well yes, but I think the motivation here is more 'since javascript is the only game in town, we'll have to compile to that'. I am not aware of any changes made to Javascript to make it easier to compile to it. And I don't think anyone would choose Javascript as their runtime environment if they had a choice. I like Clojure and have dabbled with clojurescript but the workflow feels pretty hacky and it is clear that t…

Do you mind elaborating on the hackish parts of the ClojureScript workflow? It's alpha software at the moment, but we can always use some feedback.

Re: Dart language

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you have missed the context of his remarks; perhaps I should have pasted more from the original post. You seem to be talking about "what is necessary for Dart to be a viable Web content language", while (I believe) Brendan is talking about "what are the consequences if Dart becomes a viable Web content language". If the Dart → JS compiler produces "good enough" results, and web authors wind up adopting it en…

I understand the context and still disagree. If Dart is so much better than JavaScript on Chrome and if its Dart->JS engine does a good enough job of creating usable JS on other browsers that developers are willing to commit to using it to write apps then, well, that's too bad for everyone else, isn't it? Why should Google put the brakes on improving client side development just because it puts other browsers in the…

When I first got onto the Internet, nearly every page I came across had a little image at the bottom saying "Best Viewed in Netscape Navigator". Since I was using Netscape, everything worked fine and I didn't care. Some time later, I began to see images saying "Best viewed in Internet Explorer". Everything still worked fine, so I still didn't care... but as time went on, more of those images popped up, and the pages they appeared on began to look much, much scrappier in Netscape than they did in Explorer. While most of them still worked, more or less, Explorer made a noticeable improvement.

So, three cheers to Explorer for defeating Netscape and improving client-side development for everybody, right? Find a web-developer who still has to work with IE6 and ask them what they think.

Right now, Dart is freely-licensed and available to everybody, but who can contribute to it? Who will be allowed to veto compatibility-breaking changes? What happens if Apple announces some new hardware platform, and then Google coincidentally decides that supporting that platform in the Dart VM is no longer a priority, refuses to accept patches for it, and later refactorings happen to make it very difficult to maintain outside the official tree? What if the Dart VM becomes strategically important like Android, and current releases are only available to approved partners?

Sure, it's very unlikely that all those things would happen, and fairly unlikely that even one of them would: up until now, Google has stuck pretty close to the "do no evil" thing. But if we stick with openly, collaboratively created technologies, those things are impossible, and "impossible" is better than "unlikely" in my book.

If Dart were some kind of server-side thing Google wanted to use to increase the responsiveness of their sites, or something else internal to their systems, I wouldn't care — they're allowed to do whatever they want in the privacy of their own servers. It's only because the value proposition of Dart is "give Google an inherent advantage of control over the Web, and in exchange you will get shiny things" that I'm concerned. There'll always be more shiny things, but (so far) there's only one Web.

Re: Dart language

#233
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry man, accidental downvote. It was actually a +1. I agree with you, the first impact with the language is terrible, the syntax is too reminiscent of Java. It seems that at Google Java is popular for web apps (GWT, Closure, ...). This must have had an influence. I still fail to see what are the improvements over Javascript (while they managed to get the syntax worse ). I guess a concurrency model, optional static…

Have you seen ES.next? It's worse. I want to see T39 just start over and aim for the same elegant JS-style solutions that Dart has shown for things like class declarations and a separate int type. Instead they're adding things nobody gives a damn about, like debuilderstructors and shit.

> Have you seen ES.next? [...] I want to see [...] class declarations

Uh... like this? http://brendaneich.com/brendaneich_content/uploads/CapitolJS...

Re: Dart language

#234
post #227
post #187

My hopes were high, but the more read about it, the more it started to look like Java: class Foo implements Comparable Observable Deniable ... Why not have interfaces like in Go, where you just define a set of methods and all classes having the methods will automatically implement the interface. Collection HashMap HashSet LinkedHashMap List Map Set Why not just Array and Hash? And what's up with the whole generics th…

There's only one set of Rob Pikes and Ken Thompsons on this planet :-/

Good news, maybe they won't try creating an other crappy language.

Re: Dart language

#237
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The language isn't done yet. Now is the time to let us know if you want semicolons to go away. Seeing how Go, which "wasn't done yet" either, handled external feedback... I don't see why anyone would have hopes for dart.

Look at how C++ handled external feedback and what it became because of this.

There's kind-of a gap between accepting all external feedback (C++) and dismissing all of it (Go) don't you think?

Re: Dart language

#238
post #65

From whatever little I see, I am already hating it :-) This looks like Java for Javascript, if that makes any kind of sense. We are in the year 2011, PL design has progressed so much since 1990 that such an anachronism is unpardonable. I sincerely wish that companies like Google focus on hiring the right kind of person for designing programming languages. What is frustrating is that there are so many people who can d…

I have little knowledge of the latest trends in programming languages, but if your example of a good PL theorist is someone who designed LINQ, then I am going to have to take your opinion with a grain.OfType(Salt).Where(m => m.Value.Contains(nothing)).ToList ().OrderBy(m => m.irrelevance).FirstOrDefault ();

Do you have a specific criticism of Linq, or suggestions to how it could have been designed better?

Re: Dart language

#239
post #26

A face-washed JavaScript with classes, interfaces and such stuff. I was expecting something more syntactically close to Go, or at least to Python.

Meanwhile, I've been slowly eliminating my usage of `class` from all of my CoffeeScript code. I've found that my code is much more reusable, far less prone to `this` bugs, easier to reason about, etc. I used to be a huuuge OOP guy, but now I rarely find a use for classes...

I use classes in Coffeescript, but avoid 'this' bugs by knowing that:

- JQuery examples like to abuse 'this'.

- I should always, explictly provide the event as a parameter in the callback.

So '@' is always the object, and 'event' is whatever started the method.

Re: Dart language

#240
post #93
post #47

I was expecting dynamically typed Scala, with ready to go IDE from Google and truck full of apis and tools. Or a surprise.

Re: IDE: 09.50: Now they are demoing a full eclipse based IDE for dart, very cool too, wow From http://dartinside.com/2011/live-from-dart-launch/

> eclipse

Oh. :-(

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