Are we running out of resources? • Hacker News Board

Re: Are we running out of resources?

#201

Post by verisimi » Wed, Apr 06, 2022, 6:58 AM UTC

TuringTest wrote: post #195

verisimi wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Force kills resourcefulness. Good ideas are prohibited. To resolve this, you would have to have a good idea and the capability to take governmental force (police, law). Do you feel lucky?

My point was that, if you need to take force to implement your ideas (or prevent others from stopping you), your ideas weren't as infinitely capable as you first expressed. Therein lies the contradiction in your assertions on the first post, which is what I was commenting on.

The problem of overturning government force is a different level of problem to say finding a clever way to create energy, transportation, a new medicine, etc. Its not a question of resourcefulness, its a question of understanding and coordination at scale. This is a weak point that has been played upon.

I don't think people even recognise the level of governmental force in this society - they think government is keeping them safe, rather than facilitating wealth extraction! No one has time to consider this - all are busy trying to get by, despite taxes, fines, etc.

But this force is going to become much more overt in coming years, technocracy will micromanage us. I don't think people will accept it. So I hope to see some solutions here too.

Re: Are we running out of resources?

#202

Post by pfdietz » Wed, Apr 06, 2022, 10:26 AM UTC

throwaway6532 wrote: post #197

pfdietz wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the widespread adoption of Naue Type II bronze cutting/thrusting swords and organized infantry that rendered centralized chariot armies -- and the societies that depended on them for defense -- obsolete.

I mean I was going with drought, famine, civil unrest and the sea peoples, but sure.

There was a book published not too long ago, by Eric Cline, titled "1177: The Year Civilization Collapsed", about the Late Bronze Age Collapse.

I initially liked this book. But I eventually came to the conclusion that it didn't really explain anything and concocted an overly elaborate framework that did more to obscure what happened than to clarify. It felt like that old joke about philosophy, the field where "one kicks up a lot of dust then complains one can't see anything." It ended up being so complex that it's not falsifiable.

I was much happier with the narrative in another book, "The End of the Bronze Age", by Robert Drews. Drews presents the military-technological explanation. It's simpler and it just seems to fit better. It also explains why social organization in the Iron Age was so different from the Bronze Age.

Re: Are we running out of resources?

#203

Post by TuringTest » Wed, Apr 06, 2022, 1:07 PM UTC

verisimi wrote: post #201

TuringTest wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point was that, if you need to take force to implement your ideas (or prevent others from stopping you), your ideas weren't as infinitely capable as you first expressed. Therein lies the contradiction in your assertions on the first post, which is what I was commenting on.

The problem of overturning government force is a different level of problem to say finding a clever way to create energy, transportation, a new medicine, etc. Its not a question of resourcefulness, its a question of understanding and coordination at scale. This is a weak point that has been played upon. I don't think people even recognise the level of governmental force in this society - they think government is keep…

> The problem of overturning government force is a different level of problem to say finding a clever way to create energy, transportation, a new medicine, etc.

Right. But if you don't take into account the way that the force of government in your problem statements, you're not really "infinitely [...] re-imagining and re-engineering our environment", because our environment includes a society and how it reacts - of which having governments is an integral part. Any solution you'd imagine amounts to wishful thinking without a way to put it in practice in a real, pragmatic way. Calling those solutions "infinitely resourceful" seemed a huge stretch to me.

> I don't think people even recognise the level of governmental force in this society - they think government is keeping them safe, rather than facilitating wealth extraction!

I'd say that we consider government doing both. Wealth extraction is a good thing as long as it's used for the purpose that government was created - namely keeping us safe. As long as we perceive that there's enough of a safety net for when bad luck strikes and breaks all of our careful plans, people will tolerate that some of it is diverted to providing leaders with enormous luxuries (some even defend it as a matter of course to ensure that these leaders have sufficient resources to run the nation).

About government overstepping its bounds and harming us, there is a whole philosophical and political line that discusses how to defend ourselves against it. But when that line does not take into account at all the purpose of having a government to begin with, it becomes silly.

Re: Are we running out of resources?

#204

Post by softcactus » Wed, Apr 13, 2022, 12:44 AM UTC

yetihehe wrote: post #81

softcactus wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's very easy for you to say in your current situation. I think you would not find it acceptable if you were one of the sweatshop workers. This is the exact logic that has been used to justify slavery/exploitation throughout history.

What is your argument exactly, that we should not give job to workers in poorer countries? So that they don't have any money?

Pay people without exploiting them. You can pay people decent wages and avoid putting them in unnecessary danger while still making a significant profit. If that truly cant be done, then that industry needs to be nationalized to cover the deficit.