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Why I'm in the Army Reserve – an explainer for my friends in tech

chrisseaton.com

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Re: Why I'm in the Army Reserve – an explainer for my friends in tech

#571

Post by pasabagi »

CobaltFire wrote: post #567
pasabagi wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know the logic, it's just, I don't think it makes that much sense any more. Fighting wars has become an increasingly technical occupation in the last couple of centuries. Therefore, a technically capable soldier who is cowardly, individualistic, and occasionally insubordinate would be, in some roles (say intelligence) superior to one who was none of those things, but didn't have the technical skills or aptitude. Re…

This entire paragraph reinforces what's mentioned elsewhere: that modern people are completely divorced from what the military is actually required to do and how it does it. Why does every person on an aircraft carrier need to be physically fit, follow orders, and be able to put others or the mission ahead of themselves? Because under fire, in a casualty (fire, flooding, etc.) those technically apt, out of shape peop…

My feeling is that a lot of people work in dangerous workplaces, where mistakes can and do kill people. The miltary is one of those workplaces: if you look at the stats[0] you can see that ordinary workplace injuries absolutely dwarf combat-related injuries.

Even in wartime[1], the number of deaths from enemy action rarely exceed those from accident.

What makes this worse is that the military is a pretty dangerous workplace. Even in peacetime, the US military typically loses more people to accidents than any other profession (I suspect a lot of this is down to people being 'on the job' even when they're not, but even accounting for that, the stats are bad).

If you compare the military to other institutions that do similar things the military doesn't look good. If you have an underperforming car plant that keeps on maiming employees, and the last two car models were both hideously expensive flops, then you don't go around telling people that they 'don't understand' the special requirements of your institution. You reform. I think a lot of the people in the US military are on that page already (judging from the stuff I've read about the upcoming overhaul of the marines), but in general, I think militaries would be better off if they were way more open to civilian criticism.

[0]: https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/96-103/pdfs/96-103.pdf [1]: https://dcas.dmdc.osd.mil/dcas/pages/report_number_serve.xht...

Re: Why I'm in the Army Reserve – an explainer for my friends in tech

#572

Post by wolverine876 »

analognoise wrote: post #570
wolverine876 wrote: post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All those people lied - buy we're blaming the civilian population ... Those people are us. The system is us, including you and me. There's nobody else to blame, and nobody else to do anything about it. Nothing in the parent comment offers a solution, or a better solution, or an improvement on the existing solution. Blaming some unnamed entity, pulling out a list of bad things that have happened over a half-century,…

...what? Those fucks aren't us. At all. No. There's no context - they lied to get us into multiple wars. The American people don't want that shit. This sounds like apologia for the military-corporatic interventionist garbage. Honestly it's the same infuriating "personal responsibility" CRAP like recycling - it's a smokescreen, meant to make a collective problem your personal responsibility. It doesn't matter how many…

Partly because some of the system functions like that comment, we predictably get the results we've seen.

Nobody is coming to save us, nobody else runs any mysterious system, there is nobody else. It's you and me buddy.

Re: Why I'm in the Army Reserve – an explainer for my friends in tech

#573

Post by CobaltFire »

pasabagi wrote: post #571
CobaltFire wrote: post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This entire paragraph reinforces what's mentioned elsewhere: that modern people are completely divorced from what the military is actually required to do and how it does it. Why does every person on an aircraft carrier need to be physically fit, follow orders, and be able to put others or the mission ahead of themselves? Because under fire, in a casualty (fire, flooding, etc.) those technically apt, out of shape peop…

My feeling is that a lot of people work in dangerous workplaces, where mistakes can and do kill people. The miltary is one of those workplaces: if you look at the stats[0] you can see that ordinary workplace injuries absolutely dwarf combat-related injuries. Even in wartime[1], the number of deaths from enemy action rarely exceed those from accident. What makes this worse is that the military is a pretty dangerous wo…

We are absolutely open to criticism; my point is you don't even know WHAT to criticize.

Your entire argument is predicated on a flawed understanding of what we do and the resources we have to do it.

Note that I'm not saying we are perfect (or even close), and there are so many things we could do better I could write a book, but you are moving goalposts rather than addressing the points I brought up.

The plain and simple fact is that the things we do and the conditions we do them under aren't analogous to anything in the civilian sector (with some very small exceptions) and need to be looked at and understood as such.

I'll be the first person to tell people they probably shouldn't join, but it has nothing to do with this particular argument that you are making.

Re: Why I'm in the Army Reserve – an explainer for my friends in tech

#574

Post by chrisseaton »

wolverine876 wrote: post #565
chrisseaton wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been many billionaires, or billionaire-equivalent for their time-period, in my tiny unit alone. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Cheshire_Yeomanry_off...

Thanks. Quickly looking at the links, it seems all pre-WWI, mostly 19th century. Is that still true?

No, as I said the Squadron was operationally commanded by a billionaire as recently as the 1980s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Grosvenor,_6th_Duke_of_...

It's still very common for upper class people to join the Army in the UK.

Re: Why I'm in the Army Reserve – an explainer for my friends in tech

#575

Post by goodpoint »

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #231
goodpoint wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you sign away all your citizenship rights > completely desperate ... the military is there as an option This does not happen by accident. It's practically indentured servitude with extra steps Step 1: cut public schooling, food programs, job programs, affordable housing, public transportation, free healthcare Step 2: fund the army to recruit a lot of people. Provide schooling, housing, food and healthcare to soldie…

False. The US spends a lot on public education. A lot of it is inefficient due to highly politicized unions and top-level admins that pilfer the money out from benefitting ground level teachers and students. https://www.manhattan-institute.org/issues-2020-us-public-sc... > 1. Thanks to decades of increases, America spends more per student than any other major developed nation. U.S. per-pupil expenditures have nearly…

I listed 6 aspects and you cherry-picked two.

Plus, your reply is besides the point.

Re: Why I'm in the Army Reserve – an explainer for my friends in tech

#576

Post by jwithington »

analognoise wrote: post #515
wolverine876 wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> someone that becomes that wealthy while serving (via a trust-fund, large inheritance, or winning the lottery) would no longer be a good fit for the military. They usually get offered an Honorable Discharge. That's shocking. Where is this rule? Have you seen it happen? I didn't know wealth defined fitness for service.

Of course wealth defines fitness for service (in America, anyway). Isn't "money for college and healthcare" kinda obvious about it? Like there's almost a wink and a nudge at the end of it. It's super blatant that having very few economic options and no healthcare chooses fitness for service for you.

The evidence is to the contrary--middle class and above are over-represented in the US military.

"Their median family income is more than $73,000, compared with $66,000 for civilians, and recruits are most likely to come from families in the middle of the wealth distribution, with median wealth of $87,000, almost $10,000 more than civilians."

This is for enlisted members. It's probably safe to have some intuition that officers will skew wealthier.

Re: Why I'm in the Army Reserve – an explainer for my friends in tech

#577

Post by cscurmudgeon »

goodpoint wrote: post #575
cscurmudgeon wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False. The US spends a lot on public education. A lot of it is inefficient due to highly politicized unions and top-level admins that pilfer the money out from benefitting ground level teachers and students. https://www.manhattan-institute.org/issues-2020-us-public-sc... > 1. Thanks to decades of increases, America spends more per student than any other major developed nation. U.S. per-pupil expenditures have nearly…

I listed 6 aspects and you cherry-picked two. Plus, your reply is besides the point.

Your post is standard Gish gallop. It is easy to post a slew of false statements and put the burden on others to correct them (and then respond by saying they are "besides the point"). Standard Gish gallop.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop

Re: Why I'm in the Army Reserve – an explainer for my friends in tech

#578

Post by PeterisP »

watwut wrote: post #498
PeterisP wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Starting an illegal war of aggression is a crime for which some people were convicted in Nuremberg Tribunals. However, all the soldiers fighting in such an illegal war of aggression are not considered responsible for that crime. For "simply" fighting a war and killing uniformed enemy soldiers "I was just following orders" actually is a legitimate excuse, and should not result in any convictions (of e.g. murder) unles…

> For "simply" fighting a war and killing uniformed enemy soldiers But, that is not how those wars happen. Like, literally none of those wars was limited to killing uniformed enemy soldiers. That might be Hollywood idea of war. But pretty much all of real ones involved units killing/torturing locals. Sometimes more and as a strategy, other times less so. But it happens literally every time. It is not that all armies…

While none of the wars was limited to killing uniformed enemy soldiers, for the vast majority of soldiers fighting those wars (even if illegal wars of aggression) their personal actions were limited to killing uniformed soldiers and they are not responsible or liable for any war crimes, as they did not perform them.

Re: Why I'm in the Army Reserve – an explainer for my friends in tech

#579

Post by refurb »

oneoff786 wrote: post #553
refurb wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How very brave of you to offer a sacrifice you won’t have to pay. You must be young. The same reason for going to war were used back for Iraq (both of them).

The same could be said of pretty much any policy decision

Like they say "The best tax is the one someone else pays".

Re: Why I'm in the Army Reserve – an explainer for my friends in tech

#580

Post by chaostheory »

ugl wrote: post #524
chaostheory wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure that’s relevant to even Gen X’ers. I think the real answer is which branch of the military is more notorious for abuse with their members. Historically, it tends to be the Army.

The marines aren't gentle.

The Marines have status that certain types of people want. It’s a different animal.
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