The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk • Hacker News Board

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#211

Post by pmoriarty » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 6:43 PM UTC

Jon_Lowtek wrote: post #117

brimble wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So many mega corps being Japanese is a product of anxiety about Japan at that time—maybe not even Gibson's anxiety, exactly, but if you were around then and projected which mega corps were gonna be prominent in your nearish-future setting, you'd really be swimming against the current if you didn't make a lot of them Japanese. Much of the rest of it, though, isn't about Japanese culture, corporate or otherwise, but se…

Name three japanese mega corporations with significance in the story of neuromancer

Ono-sendai, Mitsubishi-Genentech, and Hosaka.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#212

Post by the_af » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 6:43 PM UTC

api wrote: post #154

the_af wrote: post #17

One thing I read somewhere -- and it might have been an interview with Gibson or with someone else talking about his work -- is how much William Gibson despises derivatives of cyberpunk in the books, videogames and movies that followed. Specifically, he dislikes the focus on the aesthetic, neon lights, mirror shades, etc. I think Gibson really dislikes Cyberpunk 2077, for example. Gibson argued they are missing the p…

I think that's a case of an artist hating their work once it's on the canvas, which is incredibly common.

Hmm, I don't think Gibson hates his work. What do you mean?

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#213

Post by zrav » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 6:43 PM UTC

tomc1985 wrote: post #88

throw1234651234 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cyberpunk 2077 is very much a disappointment in every sense other than the scope of the project. Every single aspect of it is a cheap, shallow rip-off. It adds nothing of value to anything, though enjoyable in the way Mortal Combat is. Still, Mortal Combat was far more ground-breaking and original - that about sums up how much of a "derivative work" Cyberpunk 2077 is.

What? It was a fantastic game that spent a lot of time ruminating on topics like transhumanism, sex, and corporate power. It let players explore heterosexual and homosexual romantic relationships in first person and uncensored. Character writing is for the most part top-notch. The universe is unfailingly coherent and incredibly fleshed out. Few games have moved me to the point of tears in the credits, but this one di…

Just as the Witcher games are basically fan fiction paying homage to Sapkowskis books, CP2077 needs to be seen as a homage to many classics of the cyberpunk genre. Neuromancer, Snow Crash, Blade Runner, Ghost in the Shell to name a few obvious ones (I also see a lot of Elysium in it, FWIW). The story CD Projekt synthesized based on the concepts of these works is very fitting and surprisingly consistent, IMO. And because it's a homage, criticizing the lack of original ideas in the plot/world misses what the creators apparently set out to do. What _can_ be criticized is that they fell short of their technical ambitions. And despite its flaws, I found the game to offer quite a remarkable experience.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#214

Post by themadturk » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 6:44 PM UTC

discardedrefuse wrote: post #115

the_af wrote: post #17

One thing I read somewhere -- and it might have been an interview with Gibson or with someone else talking about his work -- is how much William Gibson despises derivatives of cyberpunk in the books, videogames and movies that followed. Specifically, he dislikes the focus on the aesthetic, neon lights, mirror shades, etc. I think Gibson really dislikes Cyberpunk 2077, for example. Gibson argued they are missing the p…

Neuromancer was a critique of the era that birthed it. Reagan might be gone, but the frameworks cemented into place back then are still the same frameworks we operate under today. Gibson may have unintentionally been predicting the future. As the world further aligns with the cyberpunk dystopia, the mainstreaming of cyberpunk aesthetic is inevitable. I'm reminded of that line in The Matrix when Neo breaks The Oracle'…

As Gibson himself has said, science fiction is a commentary on the moment in which it's written, and almost never succeeds in predicting the future. That doesn't mean it can't help shape the future (which I think Neuromancer did, at least a little). But that's a different thing.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#215

Post by the_af » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 6:48 PM UTC

tomc1985 wrote: post #88

throw1234651234 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cyberpunk 2077 is very much a disappointment in every sense other than the scope of the project. Every single aspect of it is a cheap, shallow rip-off. It adds nothing of value to anything, though enjoyable in the way Mortal Combat is. Still, Mortal Combat was far more ground-breaking and original - that about sums up how much of a "derivative work" Cyberpunk 2077 is.

What? It was a fantastic game that spent a lot of time ruminating on topics like transhumanism, sex, and corporate power. It let players explore heterosexual and homosexual romantic relationships in first person and uncensored. Character writing is for the most part top-notch. The universe is unfailingly coherent and incredibly fleshed out. Few games have moved me to the point of tears in the credits, but this one di…

> "It was a fantastic game that spent a lot of time ruminating on topics like transhumanism, sex, and corporate power"

I can't say anything about C2077 because I haven't played it, I can just repeat what Gibson said about it. And he didn't play it either, he was just judging the trailer.

What I can say is to note the three things you mentioned, "transhumanism, sex and corporate power" are also explored in other highly derivative and uninspired works of cyberpunk-influenced fiction, like Altered Carbon. Boy, was I disappointed by that show [1]! It's completely shallow, uninterested in exploring the philosophical ramifications of the technology it introduces, and instead goes for flashy visuals, endless action and explosive gore. I watched season 1 because I wanted to know whodunnit -- it was disappointing -- and season 2 was unbearable.

Whether you agree with me or not that Altered Carbon on Netflix was garbage, at least you must concede using those cyberpunk tropes you mentioned is not enough to determine quality or complexity of the plot and/or message. They are just tools in a toolbox, and can be used to build something interesting or something utterly uninspired, just another "gritty" cyberpunk copycat.

---

[1] and from what my friends tell me, the book series is not fundamentally different. Only the details vary.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#216

Post by themadturk » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 6:57 PM UTC

matthewdgreen wrote: post #54

jmyeet wrote: post #29

I was honestly underwhelmed by Neuromancer. Maybe because so many people raved about it or that I read it many years after it was written. I honestly don't know. It was... OK. But amazing? I don't see it. I love science fiction. One thing you have to realize about science ficiton is that it is a product of the time it was written. It may share many of the aesthetics, themes, philosophies and politics of that time. Li…

I think to focus on Neuromancer's use of Japanese culture is to stay at the surface level. The background of Neuromancer is one of income inequality, human destruction, and almost-absent government and community (partly caused by a ubiquitous global information network that seems to have broken everything.) We don't have brain-computer interfaces today and Chiba City isn't the center of the tech world (maybe that's S…

Gibson has always said he regards his futures as ultimately optimistic, because we're still here, not having been destroyed in a nuclear war that looked all too possible in the time it was written.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#217

Post by blaser-waffle » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 6:58 PM UTC

mmcdermott wrote: post #138

the_af wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "the majority of derivatives of the cyberpunk genre I've seen have all usually been cheap cash grabs with less than any real messaging behind it" Agreed, and it's important to note that the message "evil corporations are greedy and use tech in soulless and alienating ways" used to be a radical message but it's not anymore. Now it's just a trope. So I disagree with what some are saying that cyberpunk is currently us…

> evil corporations are greedy and use tech in soulless and alienating ways" used to be a radical message but it's not anymore. It seems like you would have to go pretty far back to find a time where that would be a genuinely radical message. The 19th century saw the trusts and rail barons. There was also the East India Trading Company and its affect on India. I haven't read Gibson's work specifically (though I'd lik…

> I haven't read Gibson's work specifically (though I'd like to), but I always got the sense that humanization and dehumanization were the primary themes of cyberpunk and the dystopian world created by corporations was one of the dehumanizing factors. That may not be fair, though.

A quote from one of the RPGnet moderators, something to the effect of...

"Transhumanism is about how technology will fundamentally reshape how we live, and how we perceive what it means to be human. Cyberpunk is how it won't."

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#218

Post by the__alchemist » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 6:58 PM UTC

throw1234651234 wrote: post #30

the__alchemist wrote: post #10

I finished reading Neuromancer a week ago. I'd played Cyberpunk 2077 recently, and Dystopia further back. So many of the concepts from those games appear to come directly from Neuromancer! I stumbled upon articles implying they were indirectly influenced; Neuromancer evidently created a whole genre! Btw, compared to hard scifi like Stephenson (relevant comparison due to Snow Crash), Neuromacer isn't really there; its…

Gibson pioneered the genre - you have to give him that. He is very much off on a lot of details though. For example, in his other books, his descriptions of mercenaries are comical at best for anyone who has a passing familiarity with the topic. Nonetheless, I place him up there with Stephenson. All this DESPITE the fact that Stephenson stands in a league of his own - he pioneered "post cyberpunk" with Diamond Age an…

Adrian tsicoholsky's Children of Time duo are the only Sci-fi books I've read that can stand with Stephenson. Give it a try! (Assuming you're not an arachnophobe)

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#219

Post by telchior » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 6:59 PM UTC

ineedasername wrote: post #149

the_af wrote: post #17

One thing I read somewhere -- and it might have been an interview with Gibson or with someone else talking about his work -- is how much William Gibson despises derivatives of cyberpunk in the books, videogames and movies that followed. Specifically, he dislikes the focus on the aesthetic, neon lights, mirror shades, etc. I think Gibson really dislikes Cyberpunk 2077, for example. Gibson argued they are missing the p…

I think the aesthetic, whether Gibson likes it or not, is interesting & compelling enough to stand on its own, outside of any specific or inherent social commentary. Though I agree that as an environment for stories its no longer well suited to commentary on society today. Some of what he envisioned has become mundane parts of everyday life, in some form or another. Others never much materialized. For the former, wel…

You're right on in your first sentence. Aesthetics trump message when art reaches wide popularity.

... I swear that I used the word "trump" above unintentionally, but my example for this is Trump rallies using music from bands like Rage Against the Machine, Neil Young and R.E.M. The music contains messages that explicitly speak against the type of political power being wielded, and! the artists themselves speak up about how much they despise the people using their music. The fact that the message is being misused couldn't be clearer. But the people using it are there for the aesthetic: the general sound and feeling of being rebels, ahead of the curve, etc.

And honestly I think that's a good thing. Creative reuse results in good and bad; jazz and Christian rock. Creators can't control their art once it's in the public, and the world would be a smaller place if they could.

Sorry I didn't reply to the part about Charles Stross, it looks like an interesting commentary but I'm not familiar enough with Stross in particular.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#220

Post by BlueTemplar » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 7:07 PM UTC

ineedasername wrote: post #149

the_af wrote: post #17

One thing I read somewhere -- and it might have been an interview with Gibson or with someone else talking about his work -- is how much William Gibson despises derivatives of cyberpunk in the books, videogames and movies that followed. Specifically, he dislikes the focus on the aesthetic, neon lights, mirror shades, etc. I think Gibson really dislikes Cyberpunk 2077, for example. Gibson argued they are missing the p…

I think the aesthetic, whether Gibson likes it or not, is interesting & compelling enough to stand on its own, outside of any specific or inherent social commentary. Though I agree that as an environment for stories its no longer well suited to commentary on society today. Some of what he envisioned has become mundane parts of everyday life, in some form or another. Others never much materialized. For the former, wel…

As he half-jokingly describes himself :

> Along the way he collected degrees in Pharmacy and Computer Science, making him the world's first officially qualified cyberpunk writer (just as cyberpunk curled up and died).

More about that close future scifi dead end :

http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2018/01/the-craz...

Including a... pandemic novel !

https://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2020/04/reality...