Live data from Hacker News

The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

sabukaru.online

131–140 of 404 posts

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#131
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I liked Paolo Bagciaglupi's "The Calorie Man" (which I read in "Rewired: The Post-Cyberpunk Anthology") as an example of this kind of "if we project today's state of affairs 30 years into the future, what is the dystopia it produces?" line of reasoning. The story is about megacorporations greedily controlling the supply of food via patents on GMO crops in a post-peak-oil society. There's no artificial general intelli…

I really recommend Bagciaglupi's "The Wind-Up Girl", which is kind of the novel expanded from The Calorie Man. It is dismal.

Don't forget "Yellow Card Man"!

Most of his stories in "Pump Six and Other Stories" are very good. Depressing, but good.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#132

The 80's were my 20s. It's hard to explain to younger folks how the 80s (especially early 80s) felt, culturally. The whole 'Japan, Inc.' thing was in full swing, and the general feeling was that Japan was eating the world. 'Tech' was this fresh, semi-mystical thing, still opaque to much of the public. Gibson latched onto that cultural wave and took it into a possible future, and it was exciting to me. Today it's inte…

It's hard to explain to younger folks how the 80s (especially early 80s) felt, culturally. The whole 'Japan, Inc.' thing was in full swing, and the general feeling was that Japan was eating the world. 'Tech' was this fresh, semi-mystical thing, still opaque to much of the public.

I'm just a little younger than you then, but I remember the 80's pretty much the same way. Japanese manufacturers (especially of cars and consumer electronics) were sort of "eating the world" and computers and high-tech were still seen as very mysterious and mesmerizing and had a real mystique about them.

Interestingly, for me, the mystique and mystery of high-tech largely persisted up until about 2010 or so. Maybe a little later, maybe 2015 even. It's only been in the last few years that it seems to be wearing off. Not sure if that's just a reflection of my becoming older and more cynical and harder to impress, or if its down to changes in society/culture at large, or what. But my recent re-reading of the Sprawl and Bridge trilogies was, in part, I think an attempt to recapture some of that. Not sure if it worked or not, but it was fun reading all that stuff.

Now in my 50s, it's still interesting but seems a bleak and not-terribly-human place that I don't want to live.

There are aspects of the "cyberpunk future" that still seem appealing in some regards, but it doesn't necessarily feel like the exact world I'd want to live in, that's for sure.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#133
post #17

One thing I read somewhere -- and it might have been an interview with Gibson or with someone else talking about his work -- is how much William Gibson despises derivatives of cyberpunk in the books, videogames and movies that followed. Specifically, he dislikes the focus on the aesthetic, neon lights, mirror shades, etc. I think Gibson really dislikes Cyberpunk 2077, for example. Gibson argued they are missing the p…

Curious if someone can find a URL for Gibson saying such things. I've never seen Gibson describing Neuromancer as a critique of Reagonomics or having any particular political agenda. Interested to see it if so! I don't think of Gibson having nearly as much "political" agenda or grounding as some other early "cyberpunk" writer's like Bruce Sterling or Rudy Rucker. (I don't think Gibson himself referred to his work "cy…

I did a cursory search, and there's certainly "What I tried to do was give people a future that is the world of the Reagan ’80s carried five steps forward and the volume turned up 20 clicks" in an article[1] from 1994.

[1]: https://ew.com/article/1994/08/26/william-gibson-first-man-c...

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#134
Gibson is still telling the same story. If you read his more recent works, like The Peripheral, you'll see it. It's still Cyberpunk. The aesthetic has been modernized. It's less neon and more black and a little too familiar, but the message is the same: Even in an overtly corrupt world, knowledge and information are supremely powerful. Because of this, an underdog can beat the system change everything.

As a 16 year old kid back in 1990, this message meant everything to me. It inspired me and gave me hope. His new stuff has less neon but is just a great to read and feels the same to me today.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#135

A great and terrible book, Gibson repeatedly throwing you in to mountains of not yet explained language and concepts before dragging you out of confusion a chapter later is frustrating and tiresome, however I could not help coming back for more. I regret nothing.

I have to read his books twice. The first time I just plow through, confused the entire time. The second pass is where I can enjoy it, but there are still a lot of times where I read a sentence and struggle with parsing it.

His new books are the same. I love it! =D

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#136
post #127
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "the majority of derivatives of the cyberpunk genre I've seen have all usually been cheap cash grabs with less than any real messaging behind it" Agreed, and it's important to note that the message "evil corporations are greedy and use tech in soulless and alienating ways" used to be a radical message but it's not anymore. Now it's just a trope. So I disagree with what some are saying that cyberpunk is currently us…

>Agreed, and it's important to note that the message "evil corporations are greedy and use tech in soulless and alienating ways" used to be a radical message but it's not anymore. "The Nazis are evil" is also an overused trope and is hardly radical but by reusing it it helps protect us on a civilizational level from actual nazis. Tropes can be sort of like cultural T cells. I'd rather see more "nazis are bad" and cyb…

Well, but evil evolves and the pitfalls of society do too. You cannot stick to representations of the past. Also, cyberpunk was supposed to be a vision of the future (used as an excuse to look at the then-present time)!

More books and games about how evil the Nazis were, unless presented in an innovative way, feel derivative and boring to me.

I don't think Gibson would object to a cyberpunk game that went beyond the aesthetics and merely replicating a message that has become a trope.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#137
post #103
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word "internet" doesn't appear in Neuromancer because in most respects it hadn't been invented yet. While DoD declared TCP/IP the future standard for military networking in 1982, IBM, DEC, and AT&T only adopted TCP/IP in 1984, a couple of months before Neuromancer went on sale. Gibson notoriously wrote it on a manual typewriter circa 1982-83. (It took a year from acceptance to put a novel manuscript into producti…

The Source? Compuserve? AOL? Those three come quickly to mind that were certainly trying very hard to be the " publicly accessible global information network with visual representations of corporate presence" you are speaking of.

AOL didn't exist when Neuromancer was written.

While the others did, Gibson seemed not to have been aware of them, and he didn't even own a computer at the time.

You can tell his vision of cyberspace came entirely from his imagination because it doesn't even remotely resemble any actual computer systems of the day.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#138
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, the majority of derivatives of the cyberpunk genre I've seen have all usually been cheap cash grabs with less than any real messaging behind it. I guess to say it more plainly it's what you see the rock or rap genres of today as. While very few people "innovate" just like the music industry the writing industry is a monopoly full of those whose only interest is in revenue generation and shiny lights rather…

> "the majority of derivatives of the cyberpunk genre I've seen have all usually been cheap cash grabs with less than any real messaging behind it" Agreed, and it's important to note that the message "evil corporations are greedy and use tech in soulless and alienating ways" used to be a radical message but it's not anymore. Now it's just a trope. So I disagree with what some are saying that cyberpunk is currently us…

> evil corporations are greedy and use tech in soulless and alienating ways" used to be a radical message but it's not anymore.

It seems like you would have to go pretty far back to find a time where that would be a genuinely radical message. The 19th century saw the trusts and rail barons. There was also the East India Trading Company and its affect on India.

I haven't read Gibson's work specifically (though I'd like to), but I always got the sense that humanization and dehumanization were the primary themes of cyberpunk and the dystopian world created by corporations was one of the dehumanizing factors. That may not be fair, though.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#139
post #125
post #17

One thing I read somewhere -- and it might have been an interview with Gibson or with someone else talking about his work -- is how much William Gibson despises derivatives of cyberpunk in the books, videogames and movies that followed. Specifically, he dislikes the focus on the aesthetic, neon lights, mirror shades, etc. I think Gibson really dislikes Cyberpunk 2077, for example. Gibson argued they are missing the p…

This is contrary to numerous interviews where Gibson praises aesthetic and for example, says that Blade Runner spot-on nailed what he was going for with Neuromancer. Gibson all throughout Neuromancer equally himself focuses, almost hyper-focuses on surface textures and visual aesthetic to juxtapose antique forms and purpose with high tech modern materials. It would seemingly be at odds for him to not like aesthetic a…

I don't think it's contrary.

First, Blade Runner came BEFORE Neuromancer was released, so it cannot have been a derivative, and there weren't any good representations of the aesthetic on screen either; its visuals broke new ground in many senses. Gibson rightly feared that:

> "BLADERUNNER came out while I was still writing Neuromancer. I was about a third of the way into the manuscript. When I saw (the first twenty minutes of) BLADERUNNER, I figured my unfinished first novel was sunk, done for. Everyone would assume I’d copped my visual texture from this astonishingly fine-looking film."

[source: https://web.archive.org/web/20070926221513/http://www.willia...]

Are there any other visual works of cyberpunk that came after Neuromancer and that Gibson praised? There must have been, but how common were they?

Second, I don't think Gibson's main objection was the aesthetic, but rather, that derivative works didn't do anything with it. They just copied, losing the punk spirit and rebelliousness.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#140
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I liked Paolo Bagciaglupi's "The Calorie Man" (which I read in "Rewired: The Post-Cyberpunk Anthology") as an example of this kind of "if we project today's state of affairs 30 years into the future, what is the dystopia it produces?" line of reasoning. The story is about megacorporations greedily controlling the supply of food via patents on GMO crops in a post-peak-oil society. There's no artificial general intelli…

I really recommend Bagciaglupi's "The Wind-Up Girl", which is kind of the novel expanded from The Calorie Man. It is dismal.

I loved that book and the world the author created.
Post reply on HN