Earlier quoted context omitted.
> some other people would have already proposed such things. Geothermal heat pumps. Been around for decades. Expensive to install due to drilling the well or laying the field, but very efficient.
Geothermal energy is risky AF though. Even with shallow drilling depths, you risk hitting anhydrite and, in combination with water, massive damage like in Staufen [1]. [1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebungsrisse_in_Staufen_im_Bre...
'Freeze-thaw battery' stores electricity long-term for seasonal release
31–40 of 105 posts
Re: 'Freeze-thaw battery' stores electricity long-term for seasonal release
#32> The battery’s theoretical energy density is 260 watt-hours per kilogram Makes me wonder how big a battery would need to be to handle all of the overwinter energy demands of some densely-populated US states.
Density of ice at 0 degC is 0.92 kg/L. So, 1 kg of ice =~ 1087 cubic centimeters of space, or a cube ~4.25 inches on a side.
Rounding that down to 4 inches for the moment, you get 27 of those per cubic foot, or (260 Wh * 27) = 7.02 kWh, and then round that down to give the extra quarter-inch back, you get ~6.5 kWh/ft3 theoretical capacity.
A typical household in the US uses 10,715 kWh/year[0], so (10715/6.5) = 1648.46 ft3 for a household's worth of freeze-thaw battery storage, or a cube 11.81 feet on a side.
Yes, of course it's more complicated than that, but the scale is pretty interesting.
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Re: 'Freeze-thaw battery' stores electricity long-term for seasonal release
#33This doesn't seem cost efficient at all, my (medium sized) house in Germany consumes about 3000kWh of electricity during winter. This does not include heating, which consumes another 15.000kWh (of heat energy from oil, so around 5000kWh electrical energy with a heat pump). If I were to use this battery I would need to get 3000(8000)kWh of energy storage at 23$ per kWh which would amount to 69000(184000)$. There are b…
Re: 'Freeze-thaw battery' stores electricity long-term for seasonal release
#34https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_thermal_energy_storag...
I was especially surprised to learn that serious attempts at storing heat in soil and rock have been made
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_thermal_energy_storag... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_Landing_Solar_Community
which in the winter is able recover >40% of the energy stored in the ground through boreholes in the summer ("BTES Efficiency")
Re: 'Freeze-thaw battery' stores electricity long-term for seasonal release
#35This doesn't seem cost efficient at all, my (medium sized) house in Germany consumes about 3000kWh of electricity during winter. This does not include heating, which consumes another 15.000kWh (of heat energy from oil, so around 5000kWh electrical energy with a heat pump). If I were to use this battery I would need to get 3000(8000)kWh of energy storage at 23$ per kWh which would amount to 69000(184000)$. There are b…
But yes, it is expensive, but it's only at the R&D stage. I'm sure could be made cheaper, and the article mentions reducing the cost to $6/kWh.
Re: 'Freeze-thaw battery' stores electricity long-term for seasonal release
#36Just realized that with a battery intended for seasonal storage you only get one cycle per year so for the same ROI as a battery that cycles weekly or daily it has to be much cheaper per kwh of capacity. OTOH it only needs to last for like 50 cycles.
Extracting from the winter / summer cycle, the day / night cycle, and the consistent deep ground / surface air temp differential.
Granted day / night might not have enough variation to take advantage of in a lot of places - but surely some cool tech has come out of desert areas right?
Re: 'Freeze-thaw battery' stores electricity long-term for seasonal release
#37For example, I know of an experimental setup in the Netherlands called CESAR (https://materialdistrict.com/article/battery-natural-stone/) that uses basalt rock. The basalt is heated up using solar energy in the summer. It is stored in an a metal box insulated with wool that apparently retains heat for months/years. Long enough to last the winter. You 'discharge' by pumping cold water through it. Warm water comes out. Very simple. It has been running for a few years and it seems to be cheap and work as advertised. Relative to burning gas, this looks like a nice idea.
Converting heat to electricity is more tricky and the efficiencies tend to be not great. Of course if the storage is cheap enough that might not be that big of a deal. Efficiencies are also a challenge with geothermal energy. But it's a great solution for heating buildings. This particular solution seems to work around this using molten salt which allows for a relatively large temperature gradient. But without having to drill kilometers into the earth's crust.
Probably over time, cost will decide which solutions end up getting used where and how. A good insight here is that different storage solutions serve very different purposes. You don't use lithium ion for seasonal storage. It's way too expensive for that. But it's great for short term grid balancing needs and seems to be popular for that. Vice versa, thermal mass would be probably bad for balancing the grid it's great for storing lots of energy that you use up slowly during the winter.
It's a tradeoff between how much energy you need stored, how much space you have for storing it, and how quickly you want to charge/discharge. It's telling a lot that a relatively expensive solution like lithium ion batteries are actually cost competitive with things like gas peaker plants. We can do probably do better long term. There is no shortage of good & already validated ideas in this space. All we need is good old engineering and manufacturing to prove products in the market at scale.
Re: 'Freeze-thaw battery' stores electricity long-term for seasonal release
#38"The freeze-thaw phenomenon is possible because the battery’s electrolyte is molten salt - a molecular cousin of ordinary table salt. The material is liquid at higher temperatures but solid at room temperature. The freeze-thaw battery was shown to retain 92 per cent of its capacity over 12 weeks." Any relation between this and 'sodium-ion' battery companies like the recently acquired Faradion? (see https://www.youtub…
https://www.maltainc.com/our-solution
Some alternative methods and related companies:
https://www.greenbiz.com/article/big-money-flows-long-durati...
Re: 'Freeze-thaw battery' stores electricity long-term for seasonal release
#39Seasonal storage and thermal batteries are pretty easy and cheap to construct. The materials tend to be cheap commodities. All you need is space to construct them and a way to produce the heat you use to charge them. For example, I know of an experimental setup in the Netherlands called CESAR ( https://materialdistrict.com/article/battery-natural-stone/ ) that uses basalt rock. The basalt is heated up using solar ene…
i had only heard of molten salt batteries which need to stay hot long term, so they are heavily insulated
maybe this article is talking about a primary battery (i.e. electrically not rechargable), which would make more sense
Re: 'Freeze-thaw battery' stores electricity long-term for seasonal release
#40Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Freeze water in the cellar (speaking of like 30m^3) using thermal pomp during winter to heat house and when electricity costs little, and use that ice in summer to cool down the house. Unless I misunderstood, the Toronto Zoo has or had such a system setup for one or more of the food pavilions. What's interesting about this is that the storage grows with the volume (n^3), but the heat/cold loss grows with the surfac…
The cube/square law also applies in the opposite direction, this is why it takes longer for lakes to freeze and why the Great Lakes never do. I believe at least one university on the Great Lakes does heating and cooling with pipes deep under the lake.
And the city of Toronto uses lake water for cooling. Heat from a downtown cooling loop is dumped into the city's drinking water supply, bringing the temperature up to around 13° from 6° (if I remember correctly).