Live data from Hacker News

Steve Jobs’ Philosophy of Life

theobjectivestandard.com

21–30 of 31 posts

Re: Steve Jobs’ Philosophy of Life

#21

Steve Jobs was an interesting man who led an unusual and great life, and I have a lot of respect for him for what he's done, but I don't think his "philosophy of life" is very practical for average people. By his late 20s, he was at the point of never having to work again. He could work for fun. This doesn't take anything away from him; he worked very hard and produced excellent products. My point is that what worked…

My father likes to use the quote, "Whether you think you can, or you think you can't - you're right." This is a Henry Ford quote and seems to apply to this situation. You can either believe you can 'follow your dreams' or believe following dreams is reserved for a select few others. Jobs didn't say everyone can become a billionaire. He said everyone can follow their dreams. He's right. >> By his late 20s, he was at t…

You can either believe you can 'follow your dreams' or believe following dreams is reserved for a select few others.

It's between those two extremes. If I decided my dream was to be a movie star, I'd be out of luck.

He had been working for fun from the beginning.

He did something really smart. He started working (for fun, as you said) before he had to. At 20, it would have been socially acceptable for him to go back to college. Since he was working but didn't have to work, he could achieve a lot. This, combined with the luck of being substantial after a few years of working life, enabled him to "work for fun" for probably most of his work life.

Re: Steve Jobs’ Philosophy of Life

#22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By "average", I meant "of average means". Whether there are "average people" is a silly argument. When I said "average people", I meant "people of average means". If "average people" means "people of average talent and ambition", then we're talking about people who neither have the talent nor desire to do what Jobs did, so the discussion's irrelevant.

Doesn't the life of Steve Jobs discredit your argument? From what I understand of his life story, he came from "average means" and achieved his success through his own creative capabilities.

From what I understand of his life story, he came from "average means" and achieved his success through his own creative capabilities.

Ok, I agree with what you are saying, but a few things are worth attention.

First, he made a very smart decision. He started working before he had to, which meant that he could start attacking problems that interested him and working in ways that would enable him to grow right away. This may be a "secret" advantage of dropping out of college; you can start working before you have to do so because of social expectations, and therefore you get to do better work. Having to work is one of the biggest obstacles most people face in their working lives, because it means they can't concentrate on the best work.

Second, the 1970s in Silicon Valley was an atypical time when a 20-year-old nobody was taken seriously by highly influential people. That era has come and gone. The only 20-year-olds who can get sit-down meetings with partners at Sequoia in 2011 are those with rich parents. We may have a more open society in the geographical aggregate, but our world is much more closed than Northern California was in the 1970s.

Re: Steve Jobs’ Philosophy of Life

#23
"Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever." -Mahatma Gandhi

If you are interested in Steve Job's philosophy of life, you may find value in learning about Stoicism.

> Montaigne was fond of an ancient drinking game where the members took turns holding up a painting of a corpse inside a coffin and cheered “Drink and be merry for when you’re dead you will look like this.”

Emotions like anxiety and fear have their roots in uncertainty and rarely in experience. Anyone who has made a big bet on themselves knows how much energy both states can consume. The solution is to do something about that ignorance. Make yourself familiar with the things, the worst-case scenarios, that you’re afraid of.

http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2009/04/13/stoicism-101...

Re: Steve Jobs’ Philosophy of Life

#24
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> If I have kids, I'm not going to tell them to "follow their dreams" or "do what you love, and everything else will take care of itself". We don't live in a good enough world for that. It's just not practical advice. There's more to it than that. If you're going to do something, do it as best as you can, otherwise don't do it so you don't waste your time. To do something as best as you can,... "you have to get it.…

If you're going to do something, do it as best as you can, otherwise don't do it so you don't waste your time. This sounds good and I like the work ethic, but it's not the most strategic approach. There's something immensely rewarding about doing a really great job at something, about building something that's truly great. Aesthetic completion, perhaps? I would personally much rather work in that way as well: always…

Of course you can't apply anyone's personal philosophy 100% to your own life.

>> But is that practical? Not for most people.

But I think that particular part can be practical for many. E.g. when studying.

Here's the particular situation you were talking about:

You're in debt & working in a large company with lots of legacy stuff, you feel you could do better.

What to do: In a large company, what you really want to do isn't to make a great product, create very compatible software or anything. It is to do what your manager or what your manager's manager wants you to do. Listen to what they want and fulfil it as well as possible. If you are going to be a cog in a machine, then you strive to be the best cog in the machine you're going to be! If not, then read below.

This isn't a job you like. You're in debt so you need the job. First thing you do would then be remove the debt! In a mortgage? Move out and lease the house or sell it and rent, which ever saves more money. Don't go out every week, go out every month. Delay that macbook pro upgrade for another year. See a big discount on shoes? Buy a couple, but don't wear them yet. Eat the generic brand cereal. Cook yourself, don't eat out. If you don't have time, eat only fruit, vegetables and rice. They are cheap and easy to prepare. If you're going to save money, you do it the best you can. Once you get out of debt and getting some savings, you can refocus on getting another job. If many companies deal with legacy shit, then focus on getting a job at Apple. :)

So you don't really want to start another career at 45. Plus you have kids to take care of. You're a father/mother after all. Ahh, so you're a parent, and you rather spend time with your kids. Then spend your time with your kids! Be the best parent you can be!

Disclaimer: I'm still in university.

Re: Steve Jobs’ Philosophy of Life

#25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My father likes to use the quote, "Whether you think you can, or you think you can't - you're right." This is a Henry Ford quote and seems to apply to this situation. You can either believe you can 'follow your dreams' or believe following dreams is reserved for a select few others. Jobs didn't say everyone can become a billionaire. He said everyone can follow their dreams. He's right. >> By his late 20s, he was at t…

You can either believe you can 'follow your dreams' or believe following dreams is reserved for a select few others. It's between those two extremes. If I decided my dream was to be a movie star, I'd be out of luck. He had been working for fun from the beginning. He did something really smart. He started working (for fun, as you said) before he had to. At 20, it would have been socially acceptable for him to go back…

> If I decided my dream was to be a movie star, I'd be out of luck.

Steve Jobs specifically advised people to do what they love. If your dream were to be a movie star, it would follow that you love to act.

There are myriad opportunities for actors to practice acting. So I don't see how you couldn't follow your dreams, i.e. do what you love.

> He did something really smart. He started working (for fun, as you said) before he had to.

I don't understand how someone's age precludes them from following their dreams.

I'm sensing a defeatist attitude. If you are convinced that it's impossible to follow your own dreams, it will be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

If, instead, you believe that you can follow your dreams, you will look for opportunities to spend your time (even 10 minutes a day at first) following that dream.

Perhaps you can respond with the specifics of your personal dream and how it is not possible to follow it so we can steer this discussion in a productive direction.

Re: Steve Jobs’ Philosophy of Life

#26
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're going to do something, do it as best as you can, otherwise don't do it so you don't waste your time. This sounds good and I like the work ethic, but it's not the most strategic approach. There's something immensely rewarding about doing a really great job at something, about building something that's truly great. Aesthetic completion, perhaps? I would personally much rather work in that way as well: always…

Of course you can't apply anyone's personal philosophy 100% to your own life. >> But is that practical? Not for most people. But I think that particular part can be practical for many. E.g. when studying. Here's the particular situation you were talking about: You're in debt & working in a large company with lots of legacy stuff, you feel you could do better. What to do: In a large company, what you really want to do…

Disclaimer: I'm still in university.

I can tell. I would have written what you did at that age. Now I'm older and jaded I don't know if that makes me wiser or stupider.

In school, you can actually ace every course. In fact, it's structured so that if you have a good work ethic, above-average talent, and a little bit of luck, getting a 4.00 GPA is possible. It's not easy (I didn't) but certainly within striking distance.

In the "real world" of work, you can't actually ace everything and please everyone while developing your career at the same time. It's not humanly possible to do everything that you "should" do. If you're trying to do five different things, you're probably doing none of them well. If you're trying to "be the best cog you can be", you won't have any energy left for the side projects that might lead to liberation from your boring corporate job. That might be the right approach; maybe your boring corporate job is one rung below a very interesting job in the same company. (Not all corporate jobs suck.) It might not be. But you have to pick and choose. What are you going to do a great job of, what are you going to get by on "good enough", and what can you cut (perhaps an unfruitful side project) for the time being?

Being "the best cog in the machine" doesn't provide much reward over being a marginally acceptable cog. You might get a 8% raise instead of 5%. Big whoop; not worth the extra hours and sweat. On the other hand, if someone in the company (possibly your manager, possibly someone else) decides to take you on in a mentor/protege role and look out for your career, then it makes sense for you to put your all into that work.

In school, you can get the sense that hard work is always rewarding and virtuous. In real life, sometimes hard work is just wasted effort. You have to discriminate.

What is very unpleasant is dealing with the aftermath of people who took "working strategically" too far and edged into the unethical: people who wrote garbage code fast, were promoted away from maintenance, and left an albatross for their juniors. That happens a lot in software. It sucks.

Re: Steve Jobs’ Philosophy of Life

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can either believe you can 'follow your dreams' or believe following dreams is reserved for a select few others. It's between those two extremes. If I decided my dream was to be a movie star, I'd be out of luck. He had been working for fun from the beginning. He did something really smart. He started working (for fun, as you said) before he had to. At 20, it would have been socially acceptable for him to go back…

> If I decided my dream was to be a movie star, I'd be out of luck. Steve Jobs specifically advised people to do what they love. If your dream were to be a movie star, it would follow that you love to act. There are myriad opportunities for actors to practice acting. So I don't see how you couldn't follow your dreams, i.e. do what you love. > He did something really smart. He started working (for fun, as you said) be…

I'm not a defeatist. I'm a realist. The "you can be whatever you want to be" bullshit that kids are fed is destructive. It's not true. Not in the least. I'm all for more moderate formulations of that, such as "pay attention to what you want, not what others expect of you" and "value your integrity and creative freedom highly; money and esteem are unimportant in comparison". I can get behind those ideals. I do not think it is responsible to tell young people that when they are adults they will be able to define their role in society and have society say, "OK, sounds good, and here's the money to pay your bills". It don't work that way.

We have a generation of neurotic, emotionally stunted, psychological cripples in this country, and one reason for that is that we've had 40+ years of kids being told they could be whatever they wanted, only to reach bitter disappointment in adulthood upon discovering reality. Which means that normal lives feel like abject failure to them. If they grew up with lower expectations, they might not be so miserable.

Our parents weren't told this shit, because our grandparents grew up in the fucking Great Depression and knew better.

Every time you tell a kid, "You can be whatever you want to be", you're setting him up for despair if he ends up in an average job and social position. You're better off telling him that life is hard and full of compromises and that most of whether he succeeds or not is out of his control, so he should focus on the 1% he can actually control. I am all for inspiring people to do work they love instead of the work that is best-paid or most esteemed, but they need to be prepared for sacrifice.

I don't understand how someone's age precludes them from following their dreams.

Like it or not-- and I'm definitely in the "not" camp because I think it's disgusting-- in the work world people are judged on where they got to at what age. That's why this "follow your dreams" bullshit is so pernicious. It leads to people (after chasing rainbows for several years) working entry-level jobs at 30, which means they are very unlikely to be taken seriously ever-- they're too far behind.

Re: Steve Jobs’ Philosophy of Life

#28
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course you can't apply anyone's personal philosophy 100% to your own life. >> But is that practical? Not for most people. But I think that particular part can be practical for many. E.g. when studying. Here's the particular situation you were talking about: You're in debt & working in a large company with lots of legacy stuff, you feel you could do better. What to do: In a large company, what you really want to do…

Disclaimer: I'm still in university. I can tell. I would have written what you did at that age. Now I'm older and jaded I don't know if that makes me wiser or stupider. In school, you can actually ace every course. In fact, it's structured so that if you have a good work ethic, above-average talent, and a little bit of luck, getting a 4.00 GPA is possible. It's not easy (I didn't) but certainly within striking distan…

My perceptions might change in the future, but I think we still agree on these points:

>> But you have to pick and choose.

1. The less time you spend doing things you won't do great at, the more you have to focus on doing great things.

2. If you want to do something great, you have to spend effort. You must try to understand all aspects of it.

What we are disagreeing on is:

1. I am saying you should only do great things.

2. You are saying we have too many things to do, and have not enough time to do all of them great.

>> You might get a 8% raise instead of 5%.

Being pedantic here, but 5% is 0% and 8% is 3%, after inflation.

Re: Steve Jobs’ Philosophy of Life

#30
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: I'm still in university. I can tell. I would have written what you did at that age. Now I'm older and jaded I don't know if that makes me wiser or stupider. In school, you can actually ace every course. In fact, it's structured so that if you have a good work ethic, above-average talent, and a little bit of luck, getting a 4.00 GPA is possible. It's not easy (I didn't) but certainly within striking distan…

My perceptions might change in the future, but I think we still agree on these points: >> But you have to pick and choose. 1. The less time you spend doing things you won't do great at, the more you have to focus on doing great things. 2. If you want to do something great, you have to spend effort. You must try to understand all aspects of it. What we are disagreeing on is: 1. I am saying you should only do great thi…

1. I am saying you should only do great things.

I disagree. Most of the things you'll be expected to do are not great and to attempt to do great work will actually get you in trouble. You'll get into personality conflicts with people who don't care as much as you do, and your pace of work will be considered slow.

It usually demands 3 times as much time and 10 times as much energy to do a great job of something than a passable job. Sometimes, a passable job is enough and more is wasted effort. People who have to do a great job of everything they are asked to do end up getting asked to do a lot of things, some unrewarding, and eventually burn out because they just can't do everything that people want done.

Example of minimal effort being ideal: your boss says you need to be in at work at 9:00 am, even though there's no hard reason (it's just a demonstration of power). Let's say your commute is under 40 minutes 98% of the time. A passable job would be to leave at 8:20 and be on time almost every day, and average 8:40-8:50. You won't get yelled at for being a few minutes late once every couple of months. The "great job" would be to leave for work at 7:30 and arrive at 7:50-8:10, when no one is in the office, thereby ensuring that (unless something very unusual happens) you'll never be late. Does this extra effort really win you anything? Is it more rewarded to be an hour early than on time? In most cases, no.

You need 3 "buckets" for your projects. A: things where you'll do a great job. B: things you'll do just well enough to satisfy the minimum demands. C: things you won't do. If your A bucket is empty, you'll probably get bored and start itching for a side project, but you do not have the time to put everything in your A bucket and will burn out if you try. Generally, you end up splitting the things you have to do (your paid job) between A and B and your personal side projects between A and C (i.e. either doing a great job, or not doing them).

Post reply on HN