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Exchange electricity prices in France go through the roof

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Re: Exchange electricity prices in France go through the roof

#31

Post by JohnHaugeland »

Archelaos wrote: post #10
belorn wrote: post #4

France (One year graph): https://www.epexspot.com/en/market-data?market_area=FR&tradi... Germany (One year graph): https://www.epexspot.com/en/market-data?market_area=DE-LU&tr... Now for some extra fun, overlay this with graphs over CO2 emissions.

> Now for some extra fun, overlay this with graphs over CO2 emissions. Some other fun: Overlay this with a graph of nuclear waste production.

It's stupid to fret about nuclear waste.

All plants, worldwide over all human history, for 20% of the power production of the entire planet, 100% green, have produced less than one half of one football field of barrels.

We can stop climate change on one field of barrels every 31 years

Thanks to mining byproducts, nuclear produces less and lower level radioactive waste than solar or wind

Zero humans in history have died from nuclear waste

It's just something scared people say to sound like they know something important

Re: Exchange electricity prices in France go through the roof

#32

Post by JohnHaugeland »

reacharavindh wrote: post #7
rurban wrote: post #3

nuclear vs wind energy maybe. just look at it. which do you think is 30x cheaper? the more interesting question is why the oil and water-energy exporter Norway got so much more expensive domestic energy prizes since it joined the European energy market.

I know it is tiring to see this comment. But, the cost of nuclear power quoted everywhere does NOT include the cost of safely handling the waste from it for hundreds of years right? Until it is included it is like Saudi Arabia claiming that oil is the best thing in the world because it costs €1/barrel because they only need to factor the cost of digging for it.

Digging miles into the ground with a 4 story mechanized oil rig is much more complicated than putting some dirt into a barrel and walking past it with a Geiger counter monthly, buddy

Re: Exchange electricity prices in France go through the roof

#33

Post by JohnHaugeland »

renox wrote: post #18
adhesive_wombat wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear power strike prices usually do include much of the long term costs, and money has to be committed into a trust (or some similar scheme) as part of getting approval in the first place. And it would be more like Saudi Arabia claiming that oil only costs $100 per barrel because they don't need to pay for pollution remediation, healthcare costs, spill cleanup and their share of all climate change effects from the…

> Nuclear power strike prices usually do include much of the long term costs In theory yes, but given that they aren't able to predict correctly the cost of building a nuclear station, I don't see why we should trust them on predicting the real cost of dismantling them..

It's very easy to accurately predict the building costs of a nuclear reactor.

The overruns you're talking about come from politicians showing up halfway through the project and changing the rules to show their voters that they are involved

Re: Exchange electricity prices in France go through the roof

#34

Post by JohnHaugeland »

pydry wrote: post #30
adhesive_wombat wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear power strike prices usually do include much of the long term costs, and money has to be committed into a trust (or some similar scheme) as part of getting approval in the first place. And it would be more like Saudi Arabia claiming that oil only costs $100 per barrel because they don't need to pay for pollution remediation, healthcare costs, spill cleanup and their share of all climate change effects from the…

Or insurance. If another fukushima strikes it's taxpayers on the hook for the $800 billion cleanup bill. Makes all the propaganda about how safe it truly is ring a bit hollow when they dont pay for their own damn insurance.

The Fukushima cleanup, unique in history and resulting from radically unlikely natural disasters, cost less than half what the fuel it replaced that decade would have

This is without considering the cost of climate change or all those prevented deaths

Re: Exchange electricity prices in France go through the roof

#35

Post by pydry »

JohnHaugeland wrote: post #34
pydry wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or insurance. If another fukushima strikes it's taxpayers on the hook for the $800 billion cleanup bill. Makes all the propaganda about how safe it truly is ring a bit hollow when they dont pay for their own damn insurance.

The Fukushima cleanup, unique in history and resulting from radically unlikely natural disasters, cost less than half what the fuel it replaced that decade would have This is without considering the cost of climate change or all those prevented deaths

Every nuclear disaster is unique yet nobody is willing to bet on any of them being the last. Fukushima was also unique in that it caused coal usage to skyrocket in Japan - a problem Germany is not currently suffering from.

To me, the way to prove that something ISNT safe is to shout loudly about how safe it is and to absolutely refuse to shoulder the costs of anything going wrong.

This is what the nuclear industry does and the government backs them.

Re: Exchange electricity prices in France go through the roof

#36

Post by merb »

belorn wrote: post #28
merb wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

btw. gas imports for france and germany from russia are probably the same.

You are right to a degree. In reality gas and oil get put into reserves which acts as buffers for the actually consumption of the fossil fuels. During periods of good wind/solar weather, the buffers start to fill up, and when demand for fossil fuel energy rises the buffers get emptied. There is however the ability to increase/decrease imports when needed by adding more transport trucks or reduce the flow in the pipe…

well germany uses less gas for energy, but more for heating and overall way way more coal. of course france has less co2 emissions. coal is even worse than gas which favors france by a big margin.

in a best of case scenario we would not use either of coal,gas,nuclear oil or any other fossil technology, but we are far from it, but i'm pretty sure europe is closer than most other countries/states/etc.

Re: Exchange electricity prices in France go through the roof

#37

Post by Archelaos »

belorn wrote: post #27
Archelaos wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The point of a graph is to illustrate a number that fluctuate and changes over time. Nuclear waste production does not. I would expect that more nuclear waste is produced when more nuclear energy is produced and less waste when less energy is produced. Isn't that a fluctuation?

Since nuclear plants generally operate at full capacity all the time you won't get changes in how much energy is produced. The linked graphs above are how much the market price is at specific locations, not how much energy get produced. The European energy market price is determined by changes in supply (wind and solar being the main contributors for fluctuations, followed by water supplies), demand for energy, and p…

> A graph over nuclear waste would have no correlation with the market price. At most one would see a slightly more volatile market price when nuclear energy production is low, and a slightly more stable market price when the production is high, but one would need to have a pretty fancy graphical design in order to confer that knowledge in a graph.

Does the market price correlate really better with CO2 emissions? Does the price drop between 21 Dec and 31 Dec from ~430/515 €/MWh to ~12/23 €/MWh mean that CO2 emissions of energy production dropped by 95% at the same time?

Re: Exchange electricity prices in France go through the roof

#38

Post by Archelaos »

merb wrote: post #36
belorn wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right to a degree. In reality gas and oil get put into reserves which acts as buffers for the actually consumption of the fossil fuels. During periods of good wind/solar weather, the buffers start to fill up, and when demand for fossil fuel energy rises the buffers get emptied. There is however the ability to increase/decrease imports when needed by adding more transport trucks or reduce the flow in the pipe…

well germany uses less gas for energy, but more for heating and overall way way more coal. of course france has less co2 emissions. coal is even worse than gas which favors france by a big margin. in a best of case scenario we would not use either of coal,gas,nuclear oil or any other fossil technology, but we are far from it, but i'm pretty sure europe is closer than most other countries/states/etc.

To put some numbers on the table, in 2018 (I could not find more recent data) the values of CO2 emissions in metric tons per capita were as follows:[1]

  France 5.0 
  Germany 9.1
For comparison:

  India 1.9
  EU 8.6
  China 8.0
  Japan 9.4
  Russia 12.1
  United States 16.1 
  Canada 16.1 
  Australia 16.8
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di...

Re: Exchange electricity prices in France go through the roof

#39

Post by bigbizisverywyz »

Archelaos wrote: post #38
merb wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well germany uses less gas for energy, but more for heating and overall way way more coal. of course france has less co2 emissions. coal is even worse than gas which favors france by a big margin. in a best of case scenario we would not use either of coal,gas,nuclear oil or any other fossil technology, but we are far from it, but i'm pretty sure europe is closer than most other countries/states/etc.

To put some numbers on the table, in 2018 (I could not find more recent data) the values of CO2 emissions in metric tons per capita were as follows:[1] France 5.0 Germany 9.1 For comparison: India 1.9 EU 8.6 China 8.0 Japan 9.4 Russia 12.1 United States 16.1 Canada 16.1 Australia 16.8 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di...

Why is Australia so high? I doubt they need much heating, but is cooling so expensive?

Re: Exchange electricity prices in France go through the roof

#40

Post by renox »

JohnHaugeland wrote: post #33
renox wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nuclear power strike prices usually do include much of the long term costs In theory yes, but given that they aren't able to predict correctly the cost of building a nuclear station, I don't see why we should trust them on predicting the real cost of dismantling them..

It's very easy to accurately predict the building costs of a nuclear reactor. The overruns you're talking about come from politicians showing up halfway through the project and changing the rules to show their voters that they are involved

In France the new nuclear reactors have been plagued by hardware issue, delays.. So no, it isn't 'easy' to predict the building costs, it's easy only when you're replicating an already existing reactor and only if it was built recently!
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