Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor” • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#181

Post by WYepQ4dNnG » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 3:41 AM UTC

grapeskin wrote: post #174

Firmwarrior wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't say that coders as an industry are destroying the road behind us, since there isn't really a road between "warehouse worker" and "software engineer", unless someone has the knack for coding (in which case there's a very clear and well-paved road within the company between those roles) I think the best solution is to empower workers via unions or whatever else. It should be impossible for workers to get gro…

Massive salaries for programmers won’t last forever. Most people here on HN are self-taught; it’s a skill a large number of motivated people can pick up. Eventually, large corporations will feel comfortable lowering wages once they have a secure grip on the market, and the tools programmers today made will be used against the next generation. It’s no different from millennials resenting boomers for burning economic b…

and that's why smart sw eng should start transitioning into management...

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#182

Post by chii » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 3:42 AM UTC

randmeerkat wrote: post #165

someelephant wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems odd to blame other workers here even if they do make a lot of money. The only way workers will be helped is other jobs provide better value to the worker or companies are regulated to provide better conditions. Personal and corporate interests will always trump community interests.

> Personal and corporate interests will always trump community interests. People _are_ responsible for the choices they make _and_ the entities they choose to empower… Anyhow… I’ve known engineers that have chosen community over themselves… Regardless, you’re on HN, fortunately you don’t have to make that choice. Instead you can skip FAANG toxicity and join a startup “community” that aligns with your values. Even bet…

> The payout is also potentially far better than grinding at a soul sucking FAANG position for years.

if you consider financial pay out, i really can't agree that it's a better payout for the risk you're taking. A startup can be a lottery, and "winning" can be difficult and has a chance element. On average, i think the payout is lower than employment at the FAANGs, esp. if you do good salary negotiation and move often to ensure you're not missing out any uptick in the market rate.

Of course, a startup, like winning the lottery, pays out a lot more when successful, and some people prefer the high risk high reward - it's not a wrong choice. But that should be understood first.

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#183

Post by chottocharaii » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 3:42 AM UTC

grapeskin wrote: post #157

uncomputation wrote: post #49

> The major goal of the program, Amazon’s head of worldwide consumer business, Dave Clark, said, was to reduce employee attrition by fostering happiness among workers — and also productivity. Shout-Outs would be part of a gamified rewards system in which employees are awarded virtual stars and badges for activities that “add direct business value,” documents state. At the meeting, Clark remarked that “some people are…

The scariest thing isn't that Amazon is a company worth nearly trillions and using that money to oppress workers to maintain their lead. It's that tech workers are happily applying to get a decent paycheck and crushing people under them, just to protect the company's billions. Then they'll post online about how happy they are to have been smart enough to save up to buy a lakefront home and retire at 45, and say peopl…

The calls for regulation recognise that these problems won't be solved by individual actions by employees. Only collective action, or political action will solve this.

Given that unions among tech workers are a non-factor; that leaves political action as the only thing left to call for.

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#184

Post by chii » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 3:46 AM UTC

grapeskin wrote: post #168

someelephant wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems odd to blame other workers here even if they do make a lot of money. The only way workers will be helped is other jobs provide better value to the worker or companies are regulated to provide better conditions. Personal and corporate interests will always trump community interests.

Tech workers can skip FAANG’s 300k salaries and still do fine with 180k at a more ethical company. Those people are responsible. The people slaving for 50 cents over minimum wage and still being unable to pay rent don’t have much of a choice.

> skip FAANG’s 300k salaries and still do fine with 180k at a more ethical company. Those people are responsible.

they are ethical, or altruistic, but certainly can't claim they are financially responsible.

If they don't have dependents (now or in the future), then they can remain financially irresponsible, because it will have little effect. But if they plan on having dependents such as children, they will need the funds to compete for scarce resources such as housing and school etc. They will also need to provide for their own retirement.

If they choose to take a lower paying job (when a higher paying one is definitely available), they are making a sacrifice on behalf of their dependents, who may or may not appreciate this choice being made for them.

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#185

Post by xyzzyz » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 3:46 AM UTC

dh2022 wrote: post #143

calvinmorrison wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends how badly you need that dollar.

I worked lots of minimum wage jobs. None of my co-workers would have peed in bottles / shit in bags / stress themselves out for 1 more dollar / hour. Me neither.

Your first hand experience here doesn't matter. You must listen to and believe the stories repeated by wealthy techies, who do not know a single person who ever worked an Amazon warehouse job, and likely don't know a person who worked a minimum wage job either.

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#186

Post by knowledge-clay » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 3:52 AM UTC

chii wrote: post #184

grapeskin wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tech workers can skip FAANG’s 300k salaries and still do fine with 180k at a more ethical company. Those people are responsible. The people slaving for 50 cents over minimum wage and still being unable to pay rent don’t have much of a choice.

> skip FAANG’s 300k salaries and still do fine with 180k at a more ethical company. Those people are responsible. they are ethical, or altruistic, but certainly can't claim they are financially responsible. If they don't have dependents (now or in the future), then they can remain financially irresponsible, because it will have little effect. But if they plan on having dependents such as children, they will need the…

> they are ethical, or altruistic, but certainly can't claim they are financially responsible.

I would hardly describe taking a salary that puts you in the top 5% of earners instead of the top 2% to be financially irresponsible.

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#187

Post by daniel-grigg » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 3:52 AM UTC

chottocharaii wrote: post #183

grapeskin wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The scariest thing isn't that Amazon is a company worth nearly trillions and using that money to oppress workers to maintain their lead. It's that tech workers are happily applying to get a decent paycheck and crushing people under them, just to protect the company's billions. Then they'll post online about how happy they are to have been smart enough to save up to buy a lakefront home and retire at 45, and say peopl…

The calls for regulation recognise that these problems won't be solved by individual actions by employees. Only collective action, or political action will solve this. Given that unions among tech workers are a non-factor; that leaves political action as the only thing left to call for.

Change starts with the individual. Inspire others with your actions.

For example I may lack the sway to affect political action on climate change but I can still change the way I live - solar power, consume less meat, etc.

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#188

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 3:53 AM UTC

lupire wrote: post #144

jasd wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why we expect Amazon to do the right thing vs we should expect in this case all retailers to do the right thing? Unfortunately as consumers we are always looking for the best deal or the lowest price on everything. Which means retailers need to cut costs every way possible which in turn leads to sucking every ounce out of workers. Let's assume that Amazon did end up making things way better for the…

Jeff Bezos's $200B says he's not paying the most he can while still surviving in business.

[deleted]

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#189

Post by ck2 » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 3:57 AM UTC

I don't understand why this "game" of businesses being allowed to prevent workers from organizing in the USA

It's their lives, it's freedom, not a game, business has no right to get in the way.

Clear law has to be set. Zero interference. No tap-dancing around the edges.

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#190

Post by scarmig » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 4:01 AM UTC

gruez wrote: post #145

scarmig wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So much of what we call "capitalism" is just creating authoritarian planned economies in the miniature and shrugging our shoulders and saying that it's all "private" so rights like free speech don't apply. And both factions of the elite who run the country like it that way.

I think you missed the whole "capitalism" vs "planned economies" comparison entirely. The advantage of capitalism over planned economies isn't that it's democratic or whatever. It's that in capitalism, individual companies are allowed to fail if they perform poorly, whereas in a command economy it takes the entire country down.

1) Within the United States, the largest corporations are closely associated with government, with a very porous interface between their highest levels. And they certainly aren't always allowed to fail.

2) Once a megacorporation has established dominance in a given market, a combination of network effects and regulatory capture removes competitive pressures. This allows the internal planned economy of the corporation to continue without competitive pressures. See e.g. Google, which essentially throws money earned through dominance in ad markets against the wall in every direction but produces little of new value.

The reason my "capitalism" has quotation marks is to point out that actually existing capitalism in the USA has pretty much nothing to do with competitive free markets.