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Exchange electricity prices in France go through the roof

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Re: Exchange electricity prices in France go through the roof

#11

Post by nicolaslem »

Archelaos wrote: post #10
belorn wrote: post #4

France (One year graph): https://www.epexspot.com/en/market-data?market_area=FR&tradi... Germany (One year graph): https://www.epexspot.com/en/market-data?market_area=DE-LU&tr... Now for some extra fun, overlay this with graphs over CO2 emissions.

> Now for some extra fun, overlay this with graphs over CO2 emissions. Some other fun: Overlay this with a graph of nuclear waste production.

Pick your poison, the former is one of the biggest threats to humanity right now, the latter is a footnote in our list of problems.

Re: Exchange electricity prices in France go through the roof

#12

Post by Manuel_D »

Archelaos wrote: post #10
belorn wrote: post #4

France (One year graph): https://www.epexspot.com/en/market-data?market_area=FR&tradi... Germany (One year graph): https://www.epexspot.com/en/market-data?market_area=DE-LU&tr... Now for some extra fun, overlay this with graphs over CO2 emissions.

> Now for some extra fun, overlay this with graphs over CO2 emissions. Some other fun: Overlay this with a graph of nuclear waste production.

France produces ~2kg of nuclear waste per person per year [1]. Most of that waste is recycled into fuel.

1. https://www.orano.group/en/unpacking-nuclear/all-about-radio...

Re: Exchange electricity prices in France go through the roof

#13

Post by Manuel_D »

rurban wrote: post #3

nuclear vs wind energy maybe. just look at it. which do you think is 30x cheaper? the more interesting question is why the oil and water-energy exporter Norway got so much more expensive domestic energy prizes since it joined the European energy market.

Does that cost figure for wind include storage? If not, then you're comparing apples to oranges.

Re: Exchange electricity prices in France go through the roof

#15

Post by complexworld »

nanope wrote: post #6
merpnderp wrote: post #5

What would Germany’s energy prices be if they’d transitioned away from cheap Russian natgas starting back in 2014? What will they be if Russia shuts down exports tomorrow? France is in a much better position.

Obviously not? Just because France doesn't buy natural gas themselves, they import so much electricity based on natural gas from its neighbors. So they are defacto dependent on natural gas as they can't supply electricity enough with nuclear and are thus in such much much worse energy political situation as prices will continue to surge.

Do you have a source for this information?

This is what I found "In 2020, France exported a total of nearly 78 terawatt hours of electricity. Meanwhile, electricity imports to France amounted to nearly 35 terawatt hours in total that year."

Source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1279015/france-electrici...

Re: Exchange electricity prices in France go through the roof

#16

Post by realusername »

Archelaos wrote: post #10
belorn wrote: post #4

France (One year graph): https://www.epexspot.com/en/market-data?market_area=FR&tradi... Germany (One year graph): https://www.epexspot.com/en/market-data?market_area=DE-LU&tr... Now for some extra fun, overlay this with graphs over CO2 emissions.

> Now for some extra fun, overlay this with graphs over CO2 emissions. Some other fun: Overlay this with a graph of nuclear waste production.

I'll take that any day over CO2 emissions, thank you

Re: Exchange electricity prices in France go through the roof

#17

Post by belorn »

Archelaos wrote: post #10
belorn wrote: post #4

France (One year graph): https://www.epexspot.com/en/market-data?market_area=FR&tradi... Germany (One year graph): https://www.epexspot.com/en/market-data?market_area=DE-LU&tr... Now for some extra fun, overlay this with graphs over CO2 emissions.

> Now for some extra fun, overlay this with graphs over CO2 emissions. Some other fun: Overlay this with a graph of nuclear waste production.

The point of a graph is to illustrate a number that fluctuate and changes over time. Nuclear waste production does not.

We could graph how much money Germany is funding the Russian military by buying gas, coal and oil. We could also graph how much radioactive particels get released into the environment through fossil fuel combustion. However both would just correlate directly with how much fossil fuel they consume which would then follow the graph of CO2 emissions. One line is plenty enough to describe all those things without having to be too explicit about the trade offs being made in Germany compared to France.

Re: Exchange electricity prices in France go through the roof

#18

Post by renox »

adhesive_wombat wrote: post #8
reacharavindh wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it is tiring to see this comment. But, the cost of nuclear power quoted everywhere does NOT include the cost of safely handling the waste from it for hundreds of years right? Until it is included it is like Saudi Arabia claiming that oil is the best thing in the world because it costs €1/barrel because they only need to factor the cost of digging for it.

Nuclear power strike prices usually do include much of the long term costs, and money has to be committed into a trust (or some similar scheme) as part of getting approval in the first place. And it would be more like Saudi Arabia claiming that oil only costs $100 per barrel because they don't need to pay for pollution remediation, healthcare costs, spill cleanup and their share of all climate change effects from the…

> Nuclear power strike prices usually do include much of the long term costs

In theory yes, but given that they aren't able to predict correctly the cost of building a nuclear station, I don't see why we should trust them on predicting the real cost of dismantling them..

Re: Exchange electricity prices in France go through the roof

#19

Post by Archelaos »

belorn wrote: post #17
Archelaos wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now for some extra fun, overlay this with graphs over CO2 emissions. Some other fun: Overlay this with a graph of nuclear waste production.

The point of a graph is to illustrate a number that fluctuate and changes over time. Nuclear waste production does not. We could graph how much money Germany is funding the Russian military by buying gas, coal and oil. We could also graph how much radioactive particels get released into the environment through fossil fuel combustion. However both would just correlate directly with how much fossil fuel they consume wh…

> The point of a graph is to illustrate a number that fluctuate and changes over time. Nuclear waste production does not.

I would expect that more nuclear waste is produced when more nuclear energy is produced and less waste when less energy is produced. Isn't that a fluctuation?

Re: Exchange electricity prices in France go through the roof

#20

Post by pjerem »

rektide wrote: post #2

weather demand related, is one comment. im interestes to hear more about the French Republic paying some.of the cost. do consumers just see a reduced rate on their bills, or is it clear that the state paid some of their bill? is thhe state blanketly paying out the same amount per use for everyone & every company, subsidizing by use, or are there limits or preconditions that apply?

Electricity providers can choose their prices but EDF, which is the only state owned provider, must have at least one offering with prices fixed by the law.

Usually, this offering is overpriced but nowadays, it’s the cheapest way to get electricity.

So EDF, as a company, is currently, technically, taking the loss. But the French state is the main shareholder of EDF and can inject capital with public money into EDF if needed.

Other electricity providers are just loosing customers. But in France, electricity providers are not electricity producers, they are just intermediates between the consumer and the producer, so they can die and I don’t care. At least, EDF is state owned, main producer, main provider and the means of production (nuclear plants) have all been paid by public money.

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