Exit interviews are a trap • Hacker News Board

Re: Exit interviews are a trap

#151

Post by baryphonic » Mon, Apr 04, 2022, 6:53 PM UTC

> They could tell you they’re fine to be a reference, but when someone calls they could say bad things. They could refuse to confirm your employment to a background investigator. They could call your new company and tell them you were fired for fraud.

These things are almost certainly illegal (IANAL) and could open up a firm employing such tactics to significant legal liability. In many larger companies, internal policies dictate that reference checks should only be answered with confirmation of employment dates and nothing else, due to the possibility of lawsuits.

The biggest risk of being honest in a way that reflects negatively on your employer in an exit interview is burning a bridge. This is a fairly minimal risk if the exit interview is with HR, though you maybe flagged as a potential trouble-maker or something.

I worked with a guy once who hated video calls. They made him nervous, and he felt strongly in async communication (inspired heavily by Basecamp's literature). The rest of the team/company was more open to video calls alongside written communication, and so he found a job elsewhere. In his exit interview, he brought this up as a problem, and so even though we didn't abandon synchronous calls, we had a bit more insight into the invariants in our team culture that would help us when hiring as well as when communicating internally.

Re: Exit interviews are a trap

#152

Post by tomerv » Mon, Apr 04, 2022, 6:55 PM UTC

ghusto wrote: post #112

Good lord, what terrible advice. If anyone is reading this and thinking of adopting his ideas, please consider (with the exception being if you're still early in your career): 1) Being true to yourself is worth more than any of his purported wins 2) Be your own merit, and don't rely on others for references or goodwill 3) If every exit interviewee states that the CEO is a dick, that can't be ignored. She won't lose h…

> Being true to yourself is worth more than any of his purported wins

Being true to yourself is not the same as saying what you think. I might think that my coworker is ugly, but I don't need to say it. I also might think that salary is too high. Not everything needs to be said.

> Be your own merit, and don't rely on others for references or goodwill

Sure, I'll try that next time when I'm looking for a job and they ask for references. I'm sure it will work out great!

Re: Exit interviews are a trap

#153

Post by bumby » Mon, Apr 04, 2022, 6:55 PM UTC

PaulKeeble wrote: post #80

bumby wrote: post #20

My issue with the author's claims is that everything is framed in a "what's in it for me" reference. Even when they decided to break their own rule and go to an exit interview, the decision was made because there was the "didn’t think I had any downside risk." There are times when your personal choices may need to take a backseat to more important goals. If you are really committed to a mission, even one you've decid…

Whistleblowers get destroyed in the culture we have right now, they loose everything. It don't think its reasonable to ask people to destroy their own lives so that we might one day find out about the horrors that companies do only to watch as nothing is done to resolve it with the perpetrators. If the circumstances were different and the public didn't stand for such widespread mistreatment of those that stood agains…

I would say it depends on the context. Are you in a profession with an ethical obligation and an oath to the public like a doctor, engineer, or lawyer? Then I think you have an obligation to say something regardless of downside. Those aren't "jobs", they are "professions" because they profess an oath that should be more than mere words.

Re: Exit interviews are a trap

#154

Post by filmgirlcw » Mon, Apr 04, 2022, 6:55 PM UTC

rising-sky wrote: post #73

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you are both professionals, it's a cathartic experience that supports your remaining coworkers. If they are not professional, they weren't going to give you a good reference anyway. It seems to me that the author is suggesting a third type of person: one who is professional until they're criticized.

then they are not professional, taking constructive criticism come with being being professional

Yeah, but most people cannot take constructive criticism, whether they think of themselves as being professional or not. They might put on a good face but are internally seething that someone dared critique them. It's a difficult line and if you need to give that sort of feedback to someone because you are actively working together, that's one thing. People can be professional, as you say, and can work through it.

But if you are leaving a company, that's even less of a reason for the person you're critiquing to listen to what you are saying (b/c they can just write it off as someone who has sour grapes or was leaving anyway), and even more of an opportunity to just create unnecessary animosity. And that professionalism that becomes a necessity when the person is still a coworker can disappear completely.

Re: Exit interviews are a trap

#155

Post by csours » Mon, Apr 04, 2022, 6:56 PM UTC

I agree with the suspicions, but I disagree with the conclusions.

If you want to give feedback in an exit interview, you should; BUT NEVER GIVE FEEDBACK IN ANGER! If you think you're going to be angry in the exit interview, don't give feedback. If you're angry at a coworker, don't give them feedback in that moment.

If you want to give feedback to a manager, probably don't do that! Asking questions can be good. Hypothetical scenarios can help. It might make you angry that you can't be direct with feedback to a manager, but that is generally part of the bargain.

So how to handle an exit interview?

Never accuse. You'll never know the whole situation.

Describe your own experience. It may be painful, but you can speak truthfully about your own experience.

Describe how your experience could have been better, without accusation.

Re: Exit interviews are a trap

#156

Post by shakezula » Mon, Apr 04, 2022, 6:58 PM UTC

ghusto wrote: post #112

Good lord, what terrible advice. If anyone is reading this and thinking of adopting his ideas, please consider (with the exception being if you're still early in your career): 1) Being true to yourself is worth more than any of his purported wins 2) Be your own merit, and don't rely on others for references or goodwill 3) If every exit interviewee states that the CEO is a dick, that can't be ignored. She won't lose h…

You can say all you want about “be yourself” and “honesty is the best policy” but that doesn’t mean the company across the table from you is going to be a good actor.

You’re placing a lot of faith on the company here, and in my experience people in companies will absolutely do things like what the author listed and thinking that they won’t is just naive.

I’ve personally experienced having a former boss who’s friends with your current boss and what that can do to your reputation.

spoiler alert: even in a situation where there wasn’t a lot of bad blood, it meant a perceptible negative change towards me.

Re: Exit interviews are a trap

#157

Post by michaelje » Mon, Apr 04, 2022, 6:58 PM UTC

samstave wrote: post #77

gbfkjdjvc wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing that passes through HR is anonymous. Ever.

HR IS NOT YOUR FRIEND, EVER. Ive been in orgs where HR was literally sleeping with head of sales, and had me fix phones with dickpics and BJ vids and etc btwn employees... uh HR IS NOT YOUR FRIEND. Do not confide in them, especially anything personal. Also, if you have an IOS device - log into your apple account and confirm the devices tied to it.. HR will (in many SV orgs) attempt to add a device to your apple accou…

How can they add a device to your AppleID? Don’t they need your user/pass etc..?

Re: Exit interviews are a trap

#158

Post by blip54321 » Mon, Apr 04, 2022, 6:58 PM UTC

ghusto wrote: post #112

Good lord, what terrible advice. If anyone is reading this and thinking of adopting his ideas, please consider (with the exception being if you're still early in your career): 1) Being true to yourself is worth more than any of his purported wins 2) Be your own merit, and don't rely on others for references or goodwill 3) If every exit interviewee states that the CEO is a dick, that can't be ignored. She won't lose h…

Yeah. Big part of this is cultural. US is "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all."

Many other parts of the world value honor and honesty more. I'm from one of those parts. In this case, it's a prisoner's dilemma. Honesty doesn't benefit you, but if everyone's honest, it benefits everyone. Exit interview, it doesn't hurt too much either. It's a safe time to be honest.

Having been on the other side of the table, if your manager is professional -- and most managers are -- it's a numbers game. The odds of an exit interview having an impact are close to zero. It's one person's issue. That doesn't make it invalid -- if you have a 30 minute longer commute to the new office, hate the way we do performance evaluations, or want growth paths into product management, you've got a valid reason to leave.

If five people hate the new location, how we do performance reviews, or don't think they have good internal growth paths, I'll act on that.

Re: Exit interviews are a trap

#159

Post by bumby » Mon, Apr 04, 2022, 6:58 PM UTC

respondo2134 wrote: post #144

bumby wrote: post #20

My issue with the author's claims is that everything is framed in a "what's in it for me" reference. Even when they decided to break their own rule and go to an exit interview, the decision was made because there was the "didn’t think I had any downside risk." There are times when your personal choices may need to take a backseat to more important goals. If you are really committed to a mission, even one you've decid…

I'd kind of hope they'd bring it up before the exit interview. If you're only raising important issues on your way out the door it's just virtue signalling to make yourself feel better. Work to fix it or keep your mouth shut & move on.

I agree, and another commenter said similar. I will say that an exit interview can often be a unique circumstance to raise issues to levels that you may not have the ability to otherwise. For example, most military units have exit interviews where enlisted get a one-on-one with the executive officer. Because of the tightly controlled hierarchy in military organizations, this may be their only chance at a one-on-one exchange with that level. To your point though, flat organizations should have plenty of opportunity before quitting to raise concerns to high levels.

Re: Exit interviews are a trap

#160

Post by john_moscow » Mon, Apr 04, 2022, 6:58 PM UTC

legitster wrote: post #26

I have no idea what the author is on about. The exit interview is often the best 30 minutes of a bad job! You can tell them what they are doing well, what they aren't doing well, praise good employees and criticize bad managers. If you are both professionals, it's a cathartic experience that supports your remaining coworkers. If they are not professional, they weren't going to give you a good reference anyway. But if…

>You can tell them what they are doing well, what they aren't doing well, praise good employees and criticize bad managers.

You can do that over a beer or two with the (ex-)colleagues any time before or after you leave. It's not like you are forced to delete them from the contact list. And if you have managed to build this kind of trust between yourself and another employee, it's always a good idea to keep a connection to them. Ping them a couple times per year, discuss some common topics, and be ready to refer each other if one is looking for a job and the other one has an opening at their company. This is called "networking".

As far as the exit interview goes, the only things it's wise to say there are the same as telling your new employer why you left the previous workplace. "Just wanted to work with X, while they were focusing on Y, so we shook hands and parted". Everyone knows it's bullshit, but it's a test of your ability to de-escalate and avoid conflict, and it is very important.

Oh, and don't underestimate the bad managers either. If they abuse you and you still act professionally (and leave politely), you are just a resource. You are no longer needed, they have no interest in abusing you, they might even give you a neutral reference if anybody asks (although don't count on that). If you personally call out their bullshit in front of other subordinates, they may take it personally, and you really do not want a personal vendetta with someone who's full-time job is to spread gossip and manipulate people.