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Exit interviews are a trap

jacobian.org

141–150 of 431 posts

Re: Exit interviews are a trap

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing that passes through HR is anonymous. Ever.

HR IS NOT YOUR FRIEND, EVER. Ive been in orgs where HR was literally sleeping with head of sales, and had me fix phones with dickpics and BJ vids and etc btwn employees... uh HR IS NOT YOUR FRIEND. Do not confide in them, especially anything personal. Also, if you have an IOS device - log into your apple account and confirm the devices tied to it.. HR will (in many SV orgs) attempt to add a device to your apple accou…

[deleted]

Re: Exit interviews are a trap

#142

I have no idea what the author is on about. The exit interview is often the best 30 minutes of a bad job! You can tell them what they are doing well, what they aren't doing well, praise good employees and criticize bad managers. If you are both professionals, it's a cathartic experience that supports your remaining coworkers. If they are not professional, they weren't going to give you a good reference anyway. But if…

> criticize bad managers. What do you do when you work for a company where you think managers are bad, and their managers are bad, but they all think they are great and they think you're the problem? How do you objectively (not subjectively) determine if a manager is bad? If 200 people in the organization are "happy enough", it's your word versus theirs on what a good manager vs a bad manager is. HR doesn't care (in…

> How do you objectively (not subjectively) determine if a manager is bad? If 200 people in the organization are "happy enough", it's your word versus theirs on what a good manager vs a bad manager is.

I really do you see where you were coming from here, but there are two things to consider here.

1) Subjective assessment is totally valid when discussing management. It’s a job about people at its core, so how people feel is relevant. If a company can’t see that then there is a larger company culture issue there. Unhappy people not working well with their manager(s) are not going to put out as much - or necessarily good - work

2) It’s not about “are most people happy or not complaining,” it’s more about patterns/repetition (e.g. “a pattern of behavior.”) If you oversee 200 people over 5 years and 10 of them left citing “inappropriate conduct/I was uncomfortable at work,” that’s going to get HR and upper management hopefully asking questions.

Re: Exit interviews are a trap

#143
I generally agree that exit interviews are a trap and I also seek to avoid them unless it is with someone I trust, in which cases, they probably already know what the situation is and why I'm leaving anyway.

I did have one situation in an exit interview (with an HR person who absolutely did not like me and the feeling was completely mutual) where I offered advice not to hire a replacement for my role but to use my salary to hire two new people instead and promote another colleague to my old title. Even though this was the logical and obvious decision to make (my salary was roughly double what an entry-level person would have been paid and the team needed more headcount that it didn't have budget for, as well as a person ready to step up to a more senior title/role), I was still utterly shocked when the company actually listened to me and made the change. Good for them!

But I think a lot of people use an exit interview to vent and get all their bullshit with their old job on the table, and I imagine that can be really cathartic. Like the author of the piece, I'm usually not someone who will do any of that because of professional consequences that can come from that sort of thing, but that is also tied to the sorts of jobs I've had, where the communities around them tend to be fairly insular and where everyone talks to everyone and winds up working with everyone. At the job where they actually took my advice about hiring, I went to a competitor that was in the exact same building. Don't burn bridges when you're probably going to see people in the elevator or on the roof deck.

That is NOT the case for a lot of engineering roles.

If I worked for a contractor or vendor that then farmed me out to various clients (often large enterprise software companies with tens of thousands of employees and vendor roles), I would be a lot less concerned about the repercussions of speaking my mind in the exit interview with the vendor company, because the worst that will probably happen is that that company won't ever want to work with me again, but I can still go to a million other similar companies. Plus, the likelihood that you'll run into the same people again feels small when you are working on something more generalized than in a more focused area.

But even in a best case scenario, where a company actually wants to take your feedback into account, I agree with the author and largely don't see the value (for the employee) in sharing why they left.

Re: Exit interviews are a trap

#144
post #20

My issue with the author's claims is that everything is framed in a "what's in it for me" reference. Even when they decided to break their own rule and go to an exit interview, the decision was made because there was the "didn’t think I had any downside risk." There are times when your personal choices may need to take a backseat to more important goals. If you are really committed to a mission, even one you've decid…

I'd kind of hope they'd bring it up before the exit interview. If you're only raising important issues on your way out the door it's just virtue signalling to make yourself feel better. Work to fix it or keep your mouth shut & move on.

Re: Exit interviews are a trap

#145
post #30

In an exit interview I've done, it was clear to me that HR was trying to spin a story about why I was leaving that didn't align with what I was saying or trying to say. They were nice enough, but it was full of questions that appeared to be designed to invalidate my thoughts or feelings. For example, the question: "But did you have the resources you needed to do your job?" to my point of "I felt like I was set up to…

If you are leaving because you were dissatisfied, it is not impossible that you would later file suit claiming that the causes of your dissatisfaction constituted constructive termination on the part of the employer, and that the reason for that was some protected characteristic. HR therefore uses exit interviews to collect evidence that can be used to substantiate the defenses that (1) there was no constructive termination, and (2) if there was, it was for some other reason than a protected characteristic. This is one of the main reasons for seeking exit interviews of voluntary departures. (If you actually felt like you were being set up to fail, there is even more reason for concern about this than in the baseline case, especially if your feeling was correct.)

Re: Exit interviews are a trap

#146

I made the mistake and told the truth one time early in my career. I got fired, err... I wasn't retained after a multi-month temp period, and was brought in to be fired, then exit interviewed. I was upset, but stuck to the truth. My direct boss was passive aggressive, didn't like me, and excluded me from the team. His code was awful, in the long term wasn't maintainable, and wouldn't be able to meet the needs of the…

I feel like people like this are fair game for naming and shaming.

Re: Exit interviews are a trap

#147
post #112

Good lord, what terrible advice. If anyone is reading this and thinking of adopting his ideas, please consider (with the exception being if you're still early in your career): 1) Being true to yourself is worth more than any of his purported wins 2) Be your own merit, and don't rely on others for references or goodwill 3) If every exit interviewee states that the CEO is a dick, that can't be ignored. She won't lose h…

Simply saying it was time to move on or to try something new isn’t being dishonest. It’s just not getting into all the dirty laundry. I wouldn’t be as dramatic as the author but I basically agree I’m under no obligation to the company at that point and just want to get out the door.

I’m sure there are exceptions. You don’t want to go back to an office. The company wouldn’t support some initiative you were championing. But for the most part I’ll make it as proforma as I can.

Re: Exit interviews are a trap

#148
A guy started at a place I was at, and we realized we worked for some other company five years earlier.

Quick lunch later, seems that the place I was at had not changed one iota from when I was there. Even when a middle manager moved or was replaced, action from on high kept the processes in place.

You're just a cog in the machine, and if the machine is running, there's very, very little that might enact a change.

Re: Exit interviews are a trap

#149
post #12

I like these. I use my exit interview to praise and give positive feedback about my co-workers.

this is a great strategy. If you really care about your now former coworkers use the opportunity to recognize and promote them. Fixing deficiencies is a job for those still working there, not you.

Re: Exit interviews are a trap

#150
post #20

My issue with the author's claims is that everything is framed in a "what's in it for me" reference. Even when they decided to break their own rule and go to an exit interview, the decision was made because there was the "didn’t think I had any downside risk." There are times when your personal choices may need to take a backseat to more important goals. If you are really committed to a mission, even one you've decid…

If you have important concerns to bring up in the exit interview, then why didn't you bring it up previously? When I left a previous job, I didn't say any of the reasons why I was leaving. All the problems in the company had been previously expressed by me or other people MULTIPLE TIMES. The problems were always ignored. I didn't want to bring them up again just to have someone argue that those problems "aren't that…

>why didn't you bring it up previously?

That's a fair point. I guess I was working from the assumption that the type of person who is mission-oriented and wants the org to succeed even without them, would also be the type of person who has been trying to fix those issue during their tenure.

I would argue, though, that just bringing an issue up isn't the same as actively trying to solve it. Pointing out problems is easy, but fixing them is often hard. Finding effective ways to communicate issues and building the relationships necessary to have the social/business capital to help fix them is not something that just occurs by shining a light on a problem. I suspect the person who wants to have a constructive exit interview isn't just wanting to vent and point at problems.

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