Live data from Hacker News

Are we running out of resources?

tokcast-bretthall-31ddc0.netlify.app

121–130 of 204 posts

Re: Are we running out of resources?

#121
post #77
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What he is pointing out is the long history of doomsaying being wrong, because it implicitly depends on the assumption that technology has reached its peak and cannot further improve. This is a straw man. The arguments against humanity’s survival are not technological, but economic: we will not survive because our economic systems continue to poison the environment, to the detriment of all. Solutions exist, but bec…

But there are plenty of examples of changes, involving both changes in economic incentives and changes in technology, that greatly reduced pollution. To pretend there's some iron law connecting industry and pollution is simply dishonest.

How so? Saudi Arabia still exists. There is not a single country on Earth who has taken the necessary steps. Hell, the EU is being threatened existentially by a fascist Russia, and they barely even entertain the idea of reducing natural gas imports from the country that is threatening them. So while there may be sporadic examples of pollution reduction, human civilization as a whole is not taking the steps that are necessary to prevent collapse.

Re: Are we running out of resources?

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the reasons we need to be expanding the space for collective resources - it's not likely we can sustain a world where everyone on earth lives in a single family detached home in the suburbs with a car, private heated pool, private air conditioning etc that the author advocates for. However, if we're a little more clever with how we allocate and share our resources, we can scale up standards of living i…

> it's not likely we can sustain a world where everyone on earth lives in a single family detached home in the suburbs with a car, private heated pool, private air conditioning etc Car traffic and road maintenance are limiting factors here, but I don't see any reason why the private air conditioning and even heating a pool (the space for a private pool, on the other hand is a traffic generator) would be limited by en…

It's not that HVAC limited by energy availability - it's that what people want is to regulate the temperature of their environment, and you can get most of the way there with good architectural design. This means people can get what they want in a more energy efficient way.

Re: Are we running out of resources?

#123

I don't think we are running out of resources. I think we are infinitely resourceful and capable of re-imagining and re-engineering our environment - in a good way! But the problem we face is vested interests and the institutions they have captured. In the name of protecting us and the environment, the governance structure creates artificial rules on behalf of their stakeholders (corporations) that stops innovation a…

> I think we are infinitely resourceful and capable of re-imagining and re-engineering our environment - in a good way! > But the problem we face is vested interests and the institutions they have captured. The second sentence contradicts the first one.

It doesn't. If you leave people to it, and people need something, someone will come along and offer a solution for a price.

But if you have a vested interest, they will want government legislation to prevent alternative solutions. Now people who have an idea face legal repercussions fines, jail, etc if they try to offer a solution.

This is the case in many industries, from taxis, to rubbish collection, to banking, to medicine. There are artificial barriers to entry that support rent-seeking by those industries already in place.

Re: Are we running out of resources?

#124
post #75
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem at the moment with renewables is they still don't provide reliable base load, and energy storage systems while useful locally are proving incredibly expensive at scale. The fact is the only option we have right now in many countries for reliable base load generation outside fossil fuels is nuclear. Some other options may eventually become viable, like geothermal or fusion, but there's no realistic prospec…

The "renewables can't supply baseload" has been so well debunked that at this point I have zero respect for anyone (typically nuclear stans) still trotting out that argument. No, renewables damn well can supply baseload, and likely cheaper than fission. The question is exactly which renewable sources and storage technologies will end up being cheapest, not whether they can do it at all.

For the benefit of us all, any sources and links to educate on this :)

Re: Are we running out of resources?

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently those options are not good enough to be implemented. - Unionisation - helped for a while, then those companies where it was implemented didn't survive because they could not make anything effectively. - building a cooperative-based economy - would be nice in theory if all people could cooperate. But in reality, they do not, there will be freewheelers who game the system. - UBI - not tried yet is the only d…

> Apparently those options are not good enough to be implemented. These options have actively been opposed by those in power, because left wing politics weaken their power. Case in point, all those coups backed by the US government against left-wing governments. > Unionisation - helped for a while, then those companies where it was implemented didn't survive because they could not make anything effectively. Not true…

> I do understand the skepticism around leftist politics - after all, many have failed under pressure from right-wing power structures.

Well, WHY did they fail. I agree with you that all your proposed solutions look and feel good and should work. But they don't work if we have right-wing power structures alongside them. If they were that good, maybe people would like that solutions more than right-wing power structures? My take: they failed because they require people to be universally good and don't account for selfish people gaining power. Selfish people WILL gain power because otherwise they couldn't do things they want for themselves.

>> nationalising important industries and resources - all nationalised resources are being wasted away for political reasons sooner or later. I know this from practice

> That's not universally true.

Nothing is universally true, including this statement. I have seen successful nationalized companies. But typically they work for the people employed there, a working product is only "byproduct" of their working. They don't stand a chance with companies making products to make best product out there. Alas, most companies making products now optimise for money given to CxO's and shareholders, so they have crap product anyways. Both pure communism and capitalism are bad.

>> Unionisation - helped for a while

> I'm curious to know why you believe this though; is it just an assumption because we don't see many union shops these

No, it's because my father worked in companies with strong unions from unionization start to bankruptcy and he told me how it looked, I have talked with other people and did my own thinking about this. Sorry, but I can't remember all those stories now, typically it goes like with all assured working conditions, where you can't fire worst performers because they have good connections, so they drag your company down. This is typical downfall of all communist-like companies and systems. Working people just work and don't care about politics. Those who don't want to work, just care about politics, are voted in and from then on, they are only parasites. You can't get rid of them, because they hold positions of power. If working people try to remedy this, they are fired until there are too many parasites for workers and whole system collapses.

Democracies of course are not immune to this, but a little more resilient, because you can change those in position of power, until you vote in some scumbags which change the rules. Only education helps with that.

Re: Are we running out of resources?

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's not likely we can sustain a world where everyone on earth lives in a single family detached home in the suburbs with a car, private heated pool, private air conditioning etc Car traffic and road maintenance are limiting factors here, but I don't see any reason why the private air conditioning and even heating a pool (the space for a private pool, on the other hand is a traffic generator) would be limited by en…

It's not that HVAC limited by energy availability - it's that what people want is to regulate the temperature of their environment, and you can get most of the way there with good architectural design. This means people can get what they want in a more energy efficient way.

I personally hate HVACs, but I live in a very comfortable climate.

Way too many people live in places where the environment temperatures are outside of the survivable range, or in places that get so hot, it's hard to do anything (often even at night). You just can't fight those by designing you building differently. You can improve the situation a little bit, but not enough.

Re: Are we running out of resources?

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that HVAC limited by energy availability - it's that what people want is to regulate the temperature of their environment, and you can get most of the way there with good architectural design. This means people can get what they want in a more energy efficient way.

I personally hate HVACs, but I live in a very comfortable climate. Way too many people live in places where the environment temperatures are outside of the survivable range, or in places that get so hot, it's hard to do anything (often even at night). You just can't fight those by designing you building differently. You can improve the situation a little bit, but not enough.

You'd be surprised. Ancient Iran (a literal desert) kept buildings cool with windcatchers [1] and qanats [2]. I do agree that we have a tendency to set up shop in really extreme places, but that's not necessarily a limiting factor in sustainable design.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windcatcher

2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qanat#Cooling

Re: Are we running out of resources?

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apparently those options are not good enough to be implemented. These options have actively been opposed by those in power, because left wing politics weaken their power. Case in point, all those coups backed by the US government against left-wing governments. > Unionisation - helped for a while, then those companies where it was implemented didn't survive because they could not make anything effectively. Not true…

> I do understand the skepticism around leftist politics - after all, many have failed under pressure from right-wing power structures. Well, WHY did they fail. I agree with you that all your proposed solutions look and feel good and should work. But they don't work if we have right-wing power structures alongside them. If they were that good, maybe people would like that solutions more than right-wing power structur…

> Well, WHY did they fail. I agree with you that all your proposed solutions look and feel good and should work. But they don't work if we have right-wing power structures alongside them.

It's not that they don't work adjacent to right-wing structures - it's that right-wing structures lead to powerful people with vested interests in maintaining dominance, and those people will do anything they can to collapse anti-hierarchical change. When Allende was elected in Chile, he took over the factories that US corporations were using as cheap labour. In response, those corporations (including Pepsi) petitioned president Nixon to enact a coup.

> But typically they work for the people employed there, a working product is only "byproduct" of their working. They don't stand a chance with companies making products to make best product out there. Alas, most companies making products now optimise for money given to CxO's and shareholders, so they have crap product anyways. Both pure communism and capitalism are bad.

I agree that the flaw of market entities is that they function in a self-serving capacity and thus making the best product will never truly be their primary goal. I think that's so-far unavoidable, unfortunately - and in either case, a corporation only cares about its shareholders where at least a cooperative cares about its workers.

> No, it's because my father worked in companies with strong unions from unionization start to bankruptcy and he told me how it looked, I have talked with other people and did my own thinking about this. Sorry, but I can't remember all those stories now, typically it goes like with all assured working conditions, where you can't fire worst performers because they have good connections, so they drag your company down. This is typical downfall of all communist-like companies and systems. Working people just work and don't care about politics. Those who don't want to work, just care about politics, are voted in and from then on, they are only parasites. You can't get rid of them, because they hold positions of power. If working people try to remedy this, they are fired until there are too many parasites for workers and whole system collapses.

This is where I think it's so important that organisations be as democratic as possible. If your union official becomes a parasite, you should be able to elect a new one. All organisations should be beholden to all of their members in a way that maximises their autonomy. This is the reason I also like Stafford Beer's VSM model: it constructs a larger company out of smaller, independent companies who operate semi-autonomously while still being structured to pursue a strategic direction. Mondragon is a working example of this.

I believe that any leftist project that eschews democracy is bad, so I think we're on the same page there. Of course, these aren't magic tools - unionisation is not a one-shot change where you get to stop fighting afterwards, as unions can be corrupt too. But generally speaking, opening up the economy to greater democratisation is a good thing in my eyes.

Re: Are we running out of resources?

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally hate HVACs, but I live in a very comfortable climate. Way too many people live in places where the environment temperatures are outside of the survivable range, or in places that get so hot, it's hard to do anything (often even at night). You just can't fight those by designing you building differently. You can improve the situation a little bit, but not enough.

You'd be surprised. Ancient Iran (a literal desert) kept buildings cool with windcatchers [1] and qanats [2]. I do agree that we have a tendency to set up shop in really extreme places, but that's not necessarily a limiting factor in sustainable design. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windcatcher 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qanat#Cooling

There should be some standard measure for how amazing a feat of historical civil engineering is and also how much we know how they actually did it, so 10/0 is 'aliens did it' through to 1/10 for basic mud huts.

Qanats seem like 'aliens did it' level of technological sophistication from my limited understanding of when and how they were built, but I guess that's more due to my lack of understanding than genuine alien influence.

But are there experts out there that know how they actually built them, and how would they rank qanats vs pyramids or great cathedrals? Like how many lifetimes were needed to plan and execute them?

Re: Are we running out of resources?

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is one of the reasons we need to be expanding the space for collective resources - it's not likely we can sustain a world where everyone on earth lives in a single family detached home in the suburbs with a car, private heated pool, private air conditioning etc that the author advocates for. I'd rather push for population control. I don't want to live in a world where humans have to live like insects, crammed…

wow, an unironic Malthusian in the wild. Nobody wants you to eat the bugs and live in the pod, friend - the point is to give everybody the best possible standard of living with the resources we have at our disposal. We can attain a pretty great standard for everybody. Not only is population control completely unnecessary, but it requires either mass murder or forced sterilisation. I would prefer that we not do either…

> We can attain a pretty great standard for everybody.

By whose definition? Living in a city is not a great quality of life for me. I've done it and hated it compared to living in a suburb.

> Not only is population control completely unnecessary, but it requires either mass murder or forced sterilisation. I would prefer that we not do either of those things.

Educated people have way fewer children than poor and uneducated people. Not to mention placing a cap on immigration, etc. Your argument is reductivist and leaves out a lot of valid ways to reduce populations.

Post reply on HN