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Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

ns.nl

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Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#231

Post by Robin_Message »

CaptainZapp wrote: post #130

Reminds me of when the entire Swiss train network shut down in 2005[0] This was, however, not due to a computer glitch, but problems in SBB's electrical grid, which lead to overload of some of the lines and then to a complete shutdown of the entire grid. Warnings were displayed on control consoles, but were drowned in 1000s of other meaningless warnings (there's a lesson for an UI designer here). I was in the ICE fro…

Aside: in case that's an eggcorn and not a typo, the day would be "fateful", as in, something momentous happened, rather than "faithful", showing loyalty.

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#232

Post by sjamaan »

MetaWhirledPeas wrote: post #133
quartz wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the notice: > It affected the system that generates up-to-date schedules for trains and staff. ...boy oh boy did trying to look into what NS uses for crew scheduling ever send me down a rabbit hole. I don't know if the systems have changed but while poking around online I found this[1] doc about the Netherlands' timetable revamp around 2006 and it talks about the complexity of TURNI-- their on-the-fly crew sched…

> everything else in their IT land outside this system runs off SAP (likely including the actual distribution of the output of crew scheduling) so if I had to gamble I'd say the failure happened somewhere in the integration between them. I have a reflex repulsion for off-the-shelf "enterprise" software. You pay millions of dollars to subscribe to a suite of (seemingly) bad, bloated software that takes more work to cu…

> My gut tells me that big names like SAP and Sales Force are easier to sell to executives.

I've heard it said that SAP is sold on the golf course, not in the IT boardroom.

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#233

Post by Sebb767 »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #181
devoutsalsa wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a professor in college teaching computer systems and design. Somehow he got to talking about the NSA. He said that back in the 60s, the NSA had computers that were running at 1000. “1000?” I asked, wondering if he’d forgotten the units. He replied “Yes, 1000.”

I've heard this joke before on HN.

I'm not sure I got the pointe. Could you explain?

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#234

Post by yourusername »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #185
rgj wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> sidenote: If anyone out there is an SAP specialist ns.nl looks like a pretty great place to work: 36hr week, 5 weeks vacation, pension, and free unlimited 2nd class + low cost 1st class train travel. Those are pretty standard terms here in .NL. 36 hours is considered fulltime by most employers, including government and semi-government. Pension is offered almost everywhere and at least 4 weeks vacation is the legal…

>36 hours is considered fulltime by most employers How standard is that in the private sector or non former state owned enterprises? I haven't looked at the NL market in a while but most tech jobs I saw back then were 40h/week.

Not very standard but if you want to work 36 or 32 hours that is possible almost everywhere (you'll just get 10-20% less pay).

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#235

Post by [deleted] »

acbart wrote: post #154
joenathanone wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Those who can, do; those who can't, teach' -George Bernard Shaw

Maybe if we paid those who teach better, we'd attract the best of the best to teach. Instead we drive good people out by making the job unbearable.

[deleted]

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#236

Post by lbriner »

supernova87a wrote: post #108

While having algorithms and computers dictating every aspect of train movements, crew scheduling, resource allocation is efficient and in a sense optimal, I think there's something compelling to be said about having a system that can survive with human-rememberable patterns when such an optimizer fails. That it can fall back on (or have at the core) simple patterns that people can still operate without algorithmic in…

You also have to ask at what cost to maintain the backup system and how easy it is to test the Disaster Recovery process. If once in a while, you have a few hours delay (or in this extreme case, a whole day) you might ask if it would be worth it, especially if you could only test it by adding random failures to the main system like Netflix do!

As another poster mentioned, they are many, many independent variables in a railway system. In the old days, people recovered from problems by gut feel and experience was OK although there is usually no "right" answer. The newer systems apply some statistical anlysis and try and make the best decision usually with humans doing the last part.

I'm not sure about "because safety" though since signalling systems protect trains from each other and they only have automation in the sense of first train that arrives gets it route sets, the system cannot make trains crash unless there is a critical bug.

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#237

Post by niels8472 »

GekkePrutser wrote: post #208
Tabular-Iceberg wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in Europe too, and I have never seen an imprinter either, but I keep being issued cards with embossed numbers, so I figure they must be good for something, if not imprinting, what else? I'm concerned about the phasing out of cash too as a separate issue, I just don't think the cashless options should have to be subject to artificial limitations like requiring electricity or a network connection to be able to be u…

Some EU countries don't issue credit/debit cards by default but they have their own system. The Netherlands is one of them. Such cards don't have embossing. You can get a MasterCard/Visa compatible card but it's not standard, though I believe this will change soon. But of course the imprinting system is ancient and extremely prone to fraud. As is the magstripe. I wish we had a choice not to have the latter anymore. I…

The Dutch debit cards are Maestro (Mastercard) or V Pay (Visa) cards which are a pretty standard systems. There is no point in embossing because transactions need to be authorized immediately by the issuing bank for obvious reasons.

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#238

Post by madaxe_again »

ArnoVW wrote: post #173
MetaWhirledPeas wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> everything else in their IT land outside this system runs off SAP (likely including the actual distribution of the output of crew scheduling) so if I had to gamble I'd say the failure happened somewhere in the integration between them. I have a reflex repulsion for off-the-shelf "enterprise" software. You pay millions of dollars to subscribe to a suite of (seemingly) bad, bloated software that takes more work to cu…

Have done consulting for 15 years, understand your feelings. But I'd like to offer some alternative viewpoints. Buying an off the shelve package also buys you an industry-standard business process. The idea is that part of value comes from the process that you have to shoe-horn into. Some integration is expected (and provided for) but if you have to modify heavily, You're Not Using It Correctly. Also, using an OTS pa…

I’ve never seen a SAP install that wasn’t modified heavily, usually to the tune of millions of dollars of development - which can’t help but make me think that if nobody can use it “correctly”, then perhaps it can’t be used in its unmodified form.

In addition, a common occurrence seems to be businesses paying for extensive custom developments (such as an integration with a third party system), and footing the entire development cost - despite their “custom” development being 100% identical to that deployed at other businesses. They’re then trapped in a world where changing the URI for an API endpoint costs €150k.

Honestly, I see it as just being a big corrupt hole fuelled by interpersonal relationships rather than any actual rationale.

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#239

Post by andybak »

Tenoke wrote: post #195
at-fates-hands wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that "The Last Question"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Question

Are you posting it reflexively because 9 out of 10 times Asimov is mentioned that's the story people talk about? Because that's definitely not the plot of it.

7/10 times.

The other three are the Carthage time-viewing story.

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#240

Post by mikebos »

jtwaleson wrote: post #180
mikebos wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has nothing to do with safety it's pure a who is where system.

Curious why “who is where” is unrelated to safety? You mean it doesn’t affect the signaling?

There are several systems all with specific functions.

ProRail the infra manager has all the systems related to safety and long term planning. Think air traffic control to keep it simple.

NS has all the systems for communication with passengers and personnel and train movement (planning). Think airliner.

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