Live data from Hacker News

L.A. judge rules LGBT corporate diversity law unconstitutional

newsweek.com

221–230 of 231 posts

Re: L.A. judge rules LGBT corporate diversity law unconstitutional

#221

"The measures came into force last year and gave firms with a main executive office in California until December 31, 2021 to have a member on their boards from groups including LGBT, Black, Latino, Asian, Native American or Pacific Islander." The headline focusing on LGBT is a reflection of the concerns of Newsweek's owners, not the law. The law is dictating a quota of a single non-white, non-straght person on all Ca…

> right-wing Asian prosperity cult New boogeyman just dropped.

That was a terrible way to word it, yes. But Newsweek probably is controlled by an actual, according-to-Hoyle cult. It's a whole thing.

At the very least, nobody should be citing it anymore; it hasn't existed in the form people think it has for many years, and is essentially just a content mill now.

Re: L.A. judge rules LGBT corporate diversity law unconstitutional

#222
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this shows how being "US liberal" is pretty much the same as "anywhere else right." Like straight out the gate with "I support marginalized people but only the way I think is best for them, disregarding their own experiences and preferences." Then immediate followup with the 2011-era reddit style pseudo-evo-psych about how our current social order is fully justified because of science or whatever. Hm why do m…

Actually, gender behaviour differences are noted in non-human primate infants also. For example (and I can find the study if you're interested), male baby monkeys prefer toy firetrucks to dolls, and they don't display motherly (viz., feeding, caressing, etc) behaviour towards the toys, whereas female infant monkeys prefer dolls (even human dolls) to toy firetrucks, and they do display these behaviours. At least when…

I'm not pretending these differences don't exist or don't affect individual behavior. I'm saying using them to justify inequality in our society as innate or inevitable is fucked up. A lot of behaviors can be accurately described as "innate" and "biological" but nonetheless the entire project of "having a society" depends on us not acting on them regularly.

But there is a very big leap between identifying inclinations in primate infants and determining that the unjust structures of our society are caused purely by that. Especially when there are so many other easily observable factors in that inequality right now.

That aside, why even focus on it when there are more powerful incentives already at play? Let's get the wages evened out then see what people do, rather than decide in advance what we think they will do.

Re: L.A. judge rules LGBT corporate diversity law unconstitutional

#223
post #158
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The sum of its parts" is a very opaque phrase here. But even without defining it, anyone with work experience has some understanding of the effect of workplace dynamics, environmental factors, office morale, and other intangible influences on one's productivity and hence, the business's success. In other words, there are emergent properties in the calculus of success, and pursuing diversity is one way of trying to c…

Sorry, you put a lot of buzzwords there, but buzzwords do not constitute any proof. It's certainly true in low-skill businesses like , i dunno, agriculture that production scales linearly. If nonlinear interactions occur it would be interesting to name them, instead of attributing it to some kind of magic ether. I dont like this completely vague explanation because it's exactly the rhetoric that people mock when they…

Well, to make it concrete then: I've seen teams get happier and more productive when some asshole is removed from the team; I've likewise seen teams get less productive because someone is added who drains morale, interest and productivity because they're continually negative and waste everyone's time with distracting concerns and a lot of "yes, but what about this?" type navel-gazing. I've found my own productivity fluctuating with different coworkers based on how well I communicate with them (where someone I struggle to interact with well gets along well with others).

So no, you can't view overall productivity as the sum of individual productivity because there are factors like this that are a function of group composition. And there's a lot of factors that are not functions of individual productivity.

Re: L.A. judge rules LGBT corporate diversity law unconstitutional

#224
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, gender behaviour differences are noted in non-human primate infants also. For example (and I can find the study if you're interested), male baby monkeys prefer toy firetrucks to dolls, and they don't display motherly (viz., feeding, caressing, etc) behaviour towards the toys, whereas female infant monkeys prefer dolls (even human dolls) to toy firetrucks, and they do display these behaviours. At least when…

I'm not pretending these differences don't exist or don't affect individual behavior. I'm saying using them to justify inequality in our society as innate or inevitable is fucked up. A lot of behaviors can be accurately described as "innate" and "biological" but nonetheless the entire project of "having a society" depends on us not acting on them regularly. But there is a very big leap between identifying inclination…

I guess where we don't see eye to eye is in the existence of 'unjust structures' in society. My own view is that all advanced cultures today, not just the West, are the result of organic developments that have occurred over millennia and have basically been subjected to social natural selection. That includes their legal systems. I'm an American living in Australia and I've worked within both legal systems. While neither is perfect, and there are sometimes glaring problems (Djockovic v The Minister for Immigration comes to mind), I wouldn't consider either to be pillars of inequality. I think any inequalities that do exist are there for a reason, and trying to exert top-down control over them isn't necessarily wise or even possible.

Take blacks and the black crime rate, for example. It's known that blacks are busted for, and convicted of, marijuana possession at rates exponentially higher than other races. Instead of concluding that perhaps blacks have some genetic predisposition for weed, or that they have cognitive differences that affect their judgment and self-control - either of which isn't an obviously unreasonable conclusion IMO - in many US states it's now been determined that, apparently, the laws themselves (viz., the laws the criminalise marijuana possession) are racist. Or take college admissions - because blacks are, on average, 1 standard deviation less intelligent than literally every other race, and hence do substantially worse on standardised tests, SURPRISE, they don't get into Ivy League universities, become lawyers and doctors and engineers, etc. But instead of considering that maybe, just possibly, there's a genetic difference - or a difference caused by them having been enslaved for a few generations - society has now apparently concluded that in fact it's the standardised tests that are racist, or the admissions process itself. Frankly I find all this laughably asinine, and if that's what you mean by the 'unjust structures of our society' then I'll have to disagree with you. Even if you want to blame their current problems on slavery, don't you think it's reasonable to call the slavery itself racist, and not today's current laws?

Regarding the gender pay gap, my understanding is that men literally work more hours than women per capita, therefore, logically, they do on average get paid more in lifetime earnings. Adding to that point, let's look at 'women's sports'. I've seen it said that WNBA players, for example, should as a matter of 'equality' be paid the same as men's NBA players. But men's players are compensated according to the market, and the market is based almost exclusively on the public's desire and willingness to pay to see men's NBA players play. People, apparently, do not want to see physically inferior females who are weaker, slower, less coordinated, etc., play basketball, and apparently people refuse to value the experience as highly as they do men's basketball. And if you find that objectionable, just look at how many females and female Olympians were outraged at the idea of having men who'd had surgery/hormone therapy compete against them in the Olympics. They know, just as I do, that there is a massive physical gap between the genders. As an aside, query whether those differences carry over into the cognitive domain (I think they do - as a start, men have 10% larger brains, and completely different proportions of important regions like Broca's area, the anterior cingulate, area 10, etc). What if they did, and men happened to be better at things that people find more valuable. Is that unjust?

Curious to know your thoughts on this, specifically whether you think 'sexism' is to blame for that market situation.

I bring that example up because, quite literally, it is one of those intractable problems (women being physically inferior to men) that we can do nothing about except accept and move on. Not every apparent inequality is a problem, IMO, nor can we fix them all.

Take care.

Re: L.A. judge rules LGBT corporate diversity law unconstitutional

#225
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not pretending these differences don't exist or don't affect individual behavior. I'm saying using them to justify inequality in our society as innate or inevitable is fucked up. A lot of behaviors can be accurately described as "innate" and "biological" but nonetheless the entire project of "having a society" depends on us not acting on them regularly. But there is a very big leap between identifying inclination…

I guess where we don't see eye to eye is in the existence of 'unjust structures' in society. My own view is that all advanced cultures today, not just the West, are the result of organic developments that have occurred over millennia and have basically been subjected to social natural selection. That includes their legal systems. I'm an American living in Australia and I've worked within both legal systems. While nei…

Wait I can't find the comment now but didn't you start this thread by claiming you're a liberal? And then three comments in you're busting out the calipers and white hood? I'm not interested sorry.

Re: L.A. judge rules LGBT corporate diversity law unconstitutional

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> right-wing Asian prosperity cult New boogeyman just dropped.

That was a terrible way to word it, yes. But Newsweek probably is controlled by an actual, according-to-Hoyle cult. It's a whole thing. At the very least, nobody should be citing it anymore; it hasn't existed in the form people think it has for many years, and is essentially just a content mill now.

> But Newsweek probably is controlled by an actual, according-to-Hoyle cult.

Lot of that going around, unfortunately.

Re: L.A. judge rules LGBT corporate diversity law unconstitutional

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was a terrible way to word it, yes. But Newsweek probably is controlled by an actual, according-to-Hoyle cult. It's a whole thing. At the very least, nobody should be citing it anymore; it hasn't existed in the form people think it has for many years, and is essentially just a content mill now.

> But Newsweek probably is controlled by an actual, according-to-Hoyle cult. Lot of that going around, unfortunately.

I get what you're trying to say here, but no, when I said "cult", I meant "an actual cult". Not just a bunch of people with fringe beliefs. :)

Re: L.A. judge rules LGBT corporate diversity law unconstitutional

#228
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since it’s us mathematically minded people here, it’s worth pointing out that these studies don’t establish causation. You’d probably find a strong correlation between financial performance of firms and investment into other social initiatives, such as corporate philanthropy or environmental causes. It’s possible that wealthier and more successful firms are simply better able to afford such investments than less succ…

Exactly: Most studies that I've been referred to are shiny McKinsey pages that boil down to big companies having more diverse boards on average. Besides what you said, that's not a surprising correlation because it's easy for Multinational MegaCorp Inc. to have a multi-ethnic board after a few international mergers. And then there are very opinionated shareholders like Vanguard and BlackRock, which receive voting rig…

Board diversity can also be an indirect metric indicating a board that stuffed with irrelevant rubber-stampers: if all you need is a rubber stamp wielder you can pick whatever flavor of human will complete your box of crayons, but if you actually need someone's judgement or experience the selection is more limited.

Re: L.A. judge rules LGBT corporate diversity law unconstitutional

#229
post #111
post #2

This seems like the right decision (and I'm saying this as an LGBT person). The problem is, it just doesn't seem like legislation is the right instrument for promoting diversity in boardrooms. But what is the right mechanism? I anecdotally recall studies that found organizations with greater diversity deliver better financial results, and that public companies have a responsibility to their shareholders. It's importa…

> and I'm saying this as an LGBT person I' m left-handed but I would never think of identifying myself as being part of some diffuse group of people 'united' by handedness. In the same vein I do not see why gays, lesbians and bisexuals are to be seen as part of a single group given that as far as I gather there is often not that much love [no pun intended] between the former two - it is not as if gays and lesbians ha…

> If you ever start a cheese packing facility make sure to put a peel corner on the left and right hand side of the package, the latter is far more useable for left-handed people...

I think there are a LOT of products that would benefit from company leadership having someone left handed (or colorblind, for that matter) due to the fact that more than a few products work sub-optimally ... probably more than from having someone who's gay.

Diversity in company leadership would better be spent on factors relevant to the product or workforce. Outside of some specialist industries, board members sexuality has absolutely no place in the workplace.

Re: L.A. judge rules LGBT corporate diversity law unconstitutional

#230
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess where we don't see eye to eye is in the existence of 'unjust structures' in society. My own view is that all advanced cultures today, not just the West, are the result of organic developments that have occurred over millennia and have basically been subjected to social natural selection. That includes their legal systems. I'm an American living in Australia and I've worked within both legal systems. While nei…

Wait I can't find the comment now but didn't you start this thread by claiming you're a liberal? And then three comments in you're busting out the calipers and white hood? I'm not interested sorry.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30899867

Definitely not busting out 'the white hood', but if you want to caricature me in that way I can't stop you, obviously. What I claimed was that I hold a number of views that are socially 'liberal' in the American sense, noting that liberal means something different in the rest of the world, including Australia (where I live).

Not sure how old you are, but at some age you'll realise that in real life the political beliefs people hold often don't conform precisely with those of any particular political party. Such is life, regardless of their political bent.

Post reply on HN