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Elden Ring Succeeds by Ignoring 20 Years of Open-World Design

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Re: Elden Ring Succeeds by Ignoring 20 Years of Open-World Design

#161

Post by Zizizizz »

throwntoday wrote: post #154
Zizizizz wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, I'm enjoying Elden Ring a lot but still feel that Breath of the Wild is much better. I think people just have preferences for different things. Elden Ring is absolutely beautiful and the world is very detailed and creative with its art style (I am at the mountaintop of the giants level 105). I would say the combat feels worse to me. It's unnecessarily punishing and dodge rolling every enemy in some dance…

>I found there were more interesting ways to fight in Breath of the Wild using the environment and enjoyed combat more. Then you're missing out on half of the fun. If one playstyle is repetitive then switch your build out. Learn dragon rot, pick a colossal weapon and apply ridiculous skills to it. Choose a faith build and spam buffs until bosses can hardly scratch you while you fat roll away. It sounds like you're ju…

I'm not dying often, so thanks for that pointless insult. I think you're missing the larger point that the variety is still largely the same. You might be casting a different spell or swing a different weapon but it's still the same overall result. Just walk, fight, walk, fight, walk, fight just with different visual effects (which are awesome don't get me wrong). But you can't fit example, set the ground on fire, catch a gust of wind into the air, land on the cliff above, cut down a tree, roll it down into the enemy that you've frozen in place.

Reskilling takes so much time to do as well so it's not like you can just swap and try out something else quickly. You have to go to Raya Lucaria, re skill, then level your items with stones, then go back to where you wanted to try something else out for a fight. You might find you actually don't like that and you have to do the whole thing over again.

Re: Elden Ring Succeeds by Ignoring 20 Years of Open-World Design

#162

Post by astrange »

xerox13ster wrote: post #51
pxc wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I struggled to finish most of the older 3D Zelda titles, but with BotW, I had so much fun just exploring and finding my own things to do that finishing the game was basically an afterthought. IMO it's a model for open world design.

I don't know about you, but I played Zelda games for a story told through a world not a world with no story. The fact that what makes Zelda games Zelda games is an afterthought was series ruining for me. I have no desire to go back to Skyward Sword after playing BOTW, it sucked all wind from my sails

I remember a lot of people disliking Skyward Sword because the traditional handholding and plot-centric Zelda design had grown to the point that you couldn’t escape the tutorial for hours and the Navi-like annoying reminder mascot had returned.

They were inspired to reinvent it by watching the reviews for Shadow of the Colossus which was “modeless” (low-UI) and refused to explain anything, like Fromsoft does now.

Re: Elden Ring Succeeds by Ignoring 20 Years of Open-World Design

#163

Post by astrange »

holyyikes wrote: post #13
libertine wrote: post #2

I hate to be that guy, but it's not fair to dismiss one of the best open world games released in the last 20 years, and which I believe inspired many things on Elden Ring - I'm talking about Breath of the Wild. Just like how you're introduced to the world is literally how BoTW introduces you to it's own world (could it be a homage?), or something as simple as picking up consumables with a simple press of a button wit…

Elden Ring has absolutely nothing in common with BOTW. The whole "exiting the cave to reveal the world" is Socrates cave shit. Old as the hills.

My recommended game where you exit a cave to reveal the outside world is Exile/Avernum III.

I don’t think video game starting caves have “shadows on the wall” though?

Re: Elden Ring Succeeds by Ignoring 20 Years of Open-World Design

#164

Post by astrange »

0F wrote: post #64

I used to love video games in 2010. I loved Skyrim and counterstrike. And in the last 4 years or so I have just stopped liking them. It just seems so boring. Online games are just a contest of who’s willing to sink the most time or money into oblivion. Single player games boil down to the story/writing so why not just read a book or watch a movie? And even then, why bother with a fictional story when I can read some…

Soulslikes don’t have “story” in the sense of other CRPGs that constantly dump words upon words on you and have romance systems that are just dungeons inside a dialog tree.

Actually, most Japanese games aren’t like that at the moment. There’s a move away from turn based JRPGs to having more action.

Re: Elden Ring Succeeds by Ignoring 20 Years of Open-World Design

#165

Post by astrange »

whoknew1122 wrote: post #11

I think author is forgetting a very important part: From it's beginning, Elden Ring was positioned as a soulslike game. People walk into a soulslike game knowing they're going to get wrecked often and things are going to be difficult. This gives developers freedom like abbreviated tutorials, making the player character a non-hero, etc. Linear storylines and sidequests, are often used as interactive tutorials. They gi…

“Difficult” is the critical consensus of what Soulslikes are about, but it’s not necessarily what the devs are thinking. If you let go the idea of having “goals” for a bit - well now it’s not “difficult” because there isn’t anything to accomplish. Sure, it’s still a game where you die all the time, but according to Miyazaki that’s 1. slapstick comedy and 2. masochism[0], not a punishment.

That’s also why there isn’t an easy mode, but if you want to make progress there’s other “modeless” ways to get stronger.

[0] Japanese media has a lot of running jokes about BDSM fetishes, which they think are personality types

Re: Elden Ring Succeeds by Ignoring 20 Years of Open-World Design

#166

Post by chownie »

Zizizizz wrote: post #161
throwntoday wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I found there were more interesting ways to fight in Breath of the Wild using the environment and enjoyed combat more. Then you're missing out on half of the fun. If one playstyle is repetitive then switch your build out. Learn dragon rot, pick a colossal weapon and apply ridiculous skills to it. Choose a faith build and spam buffs until bosses can hardly scratch you while you fat roll away. It sounds like you're ju…

I'm not dying often, so thanks for that pointless insult. I think you're missing the larger point that the variety is still largely the same. You might be casting a different spell or swing a different weapon but it's still the same overall result. Just walk, fight, walk, fight, walk, fight just with different visual effects (which are awesome don't get me wrong). But you can't fit example, set the ground on fire, ca…

> I think you're missing the larger point that the variety is still largely the same

Counterpoint, there is one form of attack in BotW, you have coupled it with a few prescripted interactions which give you the illusion of emergent behaviour, you will not actually be able to perform this action in 99.9% of your fights. In addition, your fire/attack/tree fall all just do "damage", ruling out a small number of specific exceptions your enemy will not respond differently to any so whichever achieves the higher numbers is best.

ER has different moves for light/heavy, one hand/two hand, running, rolling then the hundred plus the ashes of war skills which can be customised on each weapon. You can indeed set fire to the ground (it's a torch skill), you can catch a gust of wind (ash of war), you can freeze opponents etc. Enemies have meaningful resistances, choosing your armaments carefully makes a difference.

> Reskilling takes so much time to do as well so it's not like you can just swap and try out something else quickly

I tried this out to guage how onerous it actually is, this takes less than 15 minutes. Are you sure you're making these points in good faith?

Re: Elden Ring Succeeds by Ignoring 20 Years of Open-World Design

#167

Post by Geee »

gernb wrote: post #159
Geee wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you miss the tutorial? You said 'training pit', which should be it. It literally tells you what to do. Basically, use target lock, roll when enemy attacks and then try to hit.

No I didn't miss the tutorial. But I didn't need to role to beat the guy that it fails to teach you to roll on. I say fails, because in old Zelda's you literally couldn't pass a training course until you could successfully pull off the move where has here it was easy to kill the guy without using the move at all.

It's not very well designed. I missed the whole tutorial and was very confused. You can use roll or block to avoid attacks. Just watch the stamina bar. If it runs out, then you can't roll or block any more effectively.

Re: Elden Ring Succeeds by Ignoring 20 Years of Open-World Design

#168

Post by throwntoday »

Zizizizz wrote: post #161
throwntoday wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I found there were more interesting ways to fight in Breath of the Wild using the environment and enjoyed combat more. Then you're missing out on half of the fun. If one playstyle is repetitive then switch your build out. Learn dragon rot, pick a colossal weapon and apply ridiculous skills to it. Choose a faith build and spam buffs until bosses can hardly scratch you while you fat roll away. It sounds like you're ju…

I'm not dying often, so thanks for that pointless insult. I think you're missing the larger point that the variety is still largely the same. You might be casting a different spell or swing a different weapon but it's still the same overall result. Just walk, fight, walk, fight, walk, fight just with different visual effects (which are awesome don't get me wrong). But you can't fit example, set the ground on fire, ca…

I think you've totally missed the point. Nobody buys these games for anything but the challenge of the boss fights. If you find that repetitive the game just isn't for you.

What makes tetris or animal crossing any less repetitive? Nothing, and yet they're fun games people can sink hundreds of hours into.

Re: Elden Ring Succeeds by Ignoring 20 Years of Open-World Design

#169

Post by mercer »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #81
tomnipotent wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this is just 'sandbox' gameplay That sums it up. Enjoyment comes from core game play mechanics, not quest content. I'd be just as happy with core Street Fighter mechanics in an open world, with no-explanation filler content between boss encounters.

A lot of games genres could make for good open worlds other than FPSes/action games/action RPG's. Would love to see a Mario open world (Bowser's Fury being a sort of proto example).

I suppose Odyssey got us partway there too.

Re: Elden Ring Succeeds by Ignoring 20 Years of Open-World Design

#170

Post by mercer »

bombcar wrote: post #141
philistine wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re viewing the risk from the point of view of hindsight. Of course it wasn’t a risk, what we got was successful. Put it in context back before the game existed. The Zelda games are selling well, but they’re never Nintendo’s most successful games. What they are is Nintendo’s most revered. They have a great formula, designed by Miyamoto and polished to perfection by his successors. The critiques are getting deafeni…

I agree it's gutsy, but I don't really see the risk - if BotW had "flopped" it would be a footnote like Link Between Worlds; it wouldn't have sunk the company. Arguably it could have damaged the Switch's reputation. Interestingly it seems Nintendo understood that it could possibly not succeed, by where they placed the story in the timeline. Nintendo, at least ever since the success of the Wii, hasn't been unwilling t…

While I agree with your comment, and while this is probably a bit pedantic, I'd argue that gutsy implies there being a risk. Sure, with Nintendo the risk is not something like bankruptcy, but then again the word 'risk' doesn't just mean "a game that risks the company's future".
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