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Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

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Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#591
post #241
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High stakes means high investment. You can’t just hire a dev and have them running in a week, their bad work could cost the company multi-millions in obvious and non obvious ways and proper onboarding takes months at minimum. On the other hand, a cashier can be replaced in a week, and they don’t effect the entire future of the company as SOP.

Eh I don't believe it is a million dollar hit. If it is then you have bad controls and bad process. Google is optimizing for the wrong things. The reason Google has hard interviews is to minimize attrition and make everyone who passes the interview feel smart.

Have you worked at GAFAM? I've been on 3 person teams with over a million dollars a year in hardware expenses and we've done some crazy optimizations on our c++/java code.

Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a HM at a big tech company with this format as well. Honestly, I really like it. I don’t want to hire the wrong person, it’s expensive and it makes my job awful for a while. It’s great getting data points on several programming interviews, system design, etc. That makes my sell interview so much easier because I can trust the process to assess their technical skills. You need multiple people because you’re consta…

I would agree with you if the interview process included ANY feedback to interviewees when they were rejected. Prior to COVID, I got flown to Seattle mid-week for 2 nights and interviewed well (the recruiter told me to start looking for houses). But 20 days later I was basically ghosted by my recruiter and I had to escalate to their manager to get a response that I was rejected. They gave me no feedback at all. The i…

I went through the exact same thing at a big tech company a few weeks ago. Basically told me I got it, ghosted me for weeks, I had to escalate to higher managers, got told a generic “someone was a better match”. Do these companies think about the reputation hit these kinds of things cause? Amazon is the best example - I’m sure half the people on here would never apply to Amazon because their reputation is beyond repair at this point. Some other companies aren’t far behind. They alienate and disrespect people and those are the people that talk and spread the word.

Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it perfect? No, but it does work. How do you know it works? > I don’t want to hire the wrong person, it’s expensive and it makes my job awful for a while. There we are. It is all about you. No need to say anything else - your life is all about you, so of course if it works for you, 'it works'.

No, it's all about everyone. If I hire a person and fire them in less than a year, that's almost always because of a performance problem that's impacting the team or the org. If you're the one being fired, you probably left a job or didn't take some other job to work with us and now you're going to be unemployed. Additionally, as a hiring manager, I too am a human who wants to enjoy my job and have positive experienc…

I agree that bad hires should be avoided and that filtering early is best for everyone. The question is whether a stretched out interview process is the most effective way to filter out misalignments.

Interviews may be the best tool available while searching for unknown talent, but that does not mean they are a good tool. The process is artificial, no matter how much effort is put into framing it otherwise. Even the most honest interviewee will have difficulty behaving as they would in a normal working environment, while many are more than willing to be actors playing a part. Likewise, interviewers are interacting with the interviewee in an unnatural way and are making judgements about the interviewee in a fashion different from making a judgement of a colleague.

Even if one could somehow get beyond that artificiality, what sort of impression does it leave the candidate with? There is a world of a difference between working for a company that is careful and one that is bureaucratic, one that is focussed upon making sound decisions and one that simply follows process. It can also leave the impression that key decision makers are difficult to access, making it more difficult to get the actual meat of the work done.

As for competing for the best employees, a drawn out process doesn't benefit anyone and is the least detrimental to companies that offer a genuine competitive advantage. Keep in mind, that candidate may already be part way through the interview process at another company (or even offered a position) by the time an they are offered the first interview at your company. While both parties form impressions of the other during the interview, the candidate will gain more insight about the company's functioning in how they handle the hiring process than the other way around.

Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#594

I need to write a longer piece on our approach at Oxide, but for us it takes effort (not always successful!) to hold ourselves to 9 conversations. This may (or perhaps does?) sound obscene, but (1) these are conversations not oral exams (we don't do red-black-trees-on-whiteboards), hopefully making them less stressful for the candidate (2) we take hiring really, really seriously and (3) I have learned from mistakes a…

9 "conversations" over how much actual time? 30 mins isn't a lot of time to get a good impression and ask all you need to. If you're telling me that those nine will be conversations then I would decline as you ain't wasting my time.

Each generally has an hour slot, but it's not unusual to end earlier. The folks that we have at the interview stage are generally very interested in proceeding. (It may be helpful to know that we are very (very) oversubscribed from a hiring perspective; I know that this is not usually (or often) the case. Though, if I may add: we are oversubscribed in part because we have built an incredible team through a thoughtful process.) And, as I've said to others: we're not necessarily a fit for everyone, so we're always understanding if our process is too much or otherwise represents a poor fit.

Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, for the record, I haven't worked at a FAANG company so the stakes weren't as high. Just video game studios, so million dollar companies not billion. Even on our systems, we had so many redundancies and test servers run, that even when a mistake did run through (which was exceedingly rare, given the testing), the roll back was quick. A single dev, especially a new hire, was unable to make multi-million dollar mist…

> we had so many redundancies and test servers run How did you hire the developers who built those systems? Was the bar higher then? Lots of companies have institutional memory of how their first few hires were crucial to make the company successful. It's a tough decision whether to keep standards high, or risk losing the skills that got you this far. Eventually the early people leave. Where I work, the stuff they bu…

It isn't just a one person show, is all I'm saying. The many are more capable than the one. Even if mistakes get made, there are processes (maybe a better word than systems) in place to keep it from turning into a failure in the wild, and if it does sneak through, it's a relatively simple roll back.

When a new hire comes on, that institutional knowledge must get passed on - hopefully there is good documentation, though it's never as good as hoped. No matter how well a new hire does on their knowledge test, TBH, the most important thing I hope someone I get to work with is culture fit and the ability to learn fairly quickly =[ how to interview for that is pretty difficult, though.

Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a HM at a big tech company with this format as well. Honestly, I really like it. I don’t want to hire the wrong person, it’s expensive and it makes my job awful for a while. It’s great getting data points on several programming interviews, system design, etc. That makes my sell interview so much easier because I can trust the process to assess their technical skills. You need multiple people because you’re consta…

> I’m a HM at a big tech company with this format as well. Honestly, I really like it. The truth is that nobody likes being interviewed . Getting tested and judged by strangers isn’t fun. But developers also really don’t like being surrounded by unqualified developers who slipped through a weak interview process. They also don’t like having significant numbers of their teammates fired and replaced all the time becaus…

> nobody really wants to invest much time into building relationships with new hires because many of them are going.

That's what a "farm team" is for, developing folks with a growth mindset. Never thought of it as either miserable or terrifying.

Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what you mean? Are you suggesting that companies shouldn't avoid hiring unqualified people that generate less value than their cost on average?

I’m dubious that companies can accurately measure ability or performance, either in the interview process or on the job.

Have you ever been in a job or taken a class with other people and not been able to see the different between the more competent and more incompetent people?

Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#598
post #312
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you going to pay me $250/hr for that time? If not, why would I spend 30 hours of my life vying for a chance for a full time job with your company? And what about my current job?

Those are some high standards, you value your time at 250×8×5×52= half a million a year? I don't disagree that 30 hours is way over the top for an interview question unless you happen to find it as much fun as , or if it's somehow usefully spent time for other reasons, but your response seems to be at an equally extreme end of the spectrum.

This isn't a guaranteed full time job. For all intents and purposes, it's a short term contract with very little notice. Dev time is like anything else, if you buy in bulk (say... 2000 hours a year) and on a regular schedule, you can get some pretty good discounts.

I'm in the mid-west, and that's a little under my rate for short-term low-notice (read: emergency) contract work. I can't imagine anyone on either of the coasts is going to jump at it.

Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's rarely if ever for lack of tech skills. isn't output related with lack of tech skills?

To a point, but it's rarely the inability to code that is leading to lack of output. Output often means "did sufficient work that was seen, by management, as impactful enough". This has more to do with communication and task choice than anything. This is not really a skill that we even really attempt to measure in interview. In my experience in high performing tech companies, I've seen about 40 PIPs. There are 'utter…

> This has more to do with communication and task choice than anything.

In some cases, task assignment instead of task choice. Sometimes by unluck of the draw, you just get assigned to a shit project with no visibility. You could be Einstein, write entirely bug-free code, and you’re not going to get rewarded for the work.

I’ve seen really mediocre people brown-nose and schmooze themselves onto a rocket ship project that takes off despite their mediocrity, and they get promoted to the moon. That’s how some VP’s and Directors are made. Meanwhile, a literal genius languishes away improving the performance of InvisibleInternalTool by 500%.

The older I get the more I realize how much corporate tech performance evaluation has to do with politics and bullshitting and “being highly visible” and how little it has to do with performance.

Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked at a FAANG for 3 years and I'm pretty sure no one I worked with was on a PIP. A PIP is extreme. It's sufficient to simply not give people raises, most people can and will easily find another job earning 10% more.

How would you really know? People don't usually talk publicly about their PIP. I went from long time IC to manager at a faang adjacent company. It was eye opening to see who was on a PIP and go through calibrations. There were well liked, competent people who others on the team got along with but they just were not delivering at the expected level. Sometimes the problem was lack of motivation or bad role fit.

Um, this is an antonymous forum, wouldn't you expect many comments from people that were PIPed if it was a very common thing?
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