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Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

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Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#541
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> these roles are usually high stakes and the cost of a bad hire is too high Really? High stakes? This fucking site. Have you ever worked as a software developer at a corporation? Nothing about it is high stakes. You spend most of your time dealing with useless idiots who report to other useless idiots, who report to other useless idiots, about a useless product they think is a great idea that every non-idiot knows i…

High stakes means high investment. You can’t just hire a dev and have them running in a week, their bad work could cost the company multi-millions in obvious and non obvious ways and proper onboarding takes months at minimum. On the other hand, a cashier can be replaced in a week, and they don’t effect the entire future of the company as SOP.

> their bad work could cost the company multi-millions

That's such patently absurd bullshit. Google has a code review process. Almost any large tech company has this today. The review process is to ensure that it's a team effort when a major screw-up happens. You don't just let some new employee merge untested and unreviewed code.

You know who I always see harming the company with outages and downtime? Seniors and managers that cut corners. I've had managers before that put in place all these safe guards that go out the window the very second a deadline is threatened. They merge untested code. They route traffic haphazardly. They fuck around with DNS or user accounts on a whim. Because no one is there to tell them not to. They believe they are the exception. The rules are for the minions below them. If you're working late on a weekend cleaning up a huge mess, there is a good chance it's because some manager-turned-arsonist fucked around with the process. They cut corners on the planning, the implementation, or the roll-out.

Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#542
post #44

Having been an interviewer at a FAANG for many years, I can explain some of the logic behind it. I'm not saying this logic is valid , but it's how we got here, imho. First: we no longer trust the hiring manager alone, because probably they aren't a strong developer. We instead trust strong developers that are well trained at evaluating good devs. At the same time, we don't want to thrust a dev onto a hiring manager,…

Interesting. In medicine they tried to solve this issue by having multiple assessors in the Multi Mini Interview (MMI) [1]. Applicants spend 8-12 minutes with different interviewers in short succession and have a couple minutes to prepare between stations. Each station and assessor has a different question or goal (e.g. critical thinking, communication skills) which are unlinked and it is supposed to remove cumulative biases or the risk of the interview panel having deciding a negative outcome in the first five minutes. It ends up being a lot of behavioural interviewing but seems to work out.

[1] https://students-residents.aamc.org/applying-medical-school/...

Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#543

Recently did 5 interviews, and I liked it. I’d had no issues doing more if needed, just to be on the safe side for both parties. I guess that when a family doesn’t depend on your job or you are not leaving a good position, it could be OK to join a company after 3 or 4 interviews. But if you have a family or are leaving a good position, there is much more at stake. 7 interviews is not that high of an investment to low…

> 7 interviews is not that high of an investment to lower the risk of a bad move

To me it seems that for this to be true, either my time must be worth very little or I must be really risk averse.

Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#544
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a similar experience in the late 90s. We had people who couldn’t program but represented that they could. We would give them a quick screen of “write in one of the languages this position requires a program that takes in a string, reverses it and prints it out.” And we changed it to any language once we started working with novel stuff like JavaScript that any programmer could pick up. It was so weird how many…

People who complain about software interviews being a high barrier to entry have never dealt with any other high-skilled high-paying profession. Want to become a doctor? Study for 12-15 years. Lawyers, accountants, pilots, actuaries all have similar multi-year licensing requirements. Places like investment banks and consulting firms will put candidates through a multi-week interview process involving stuff like case…

> Want to become a doctor? Study for 12-15 years.

Yeah, and all of those years are filled with constant punishment. In my experience it was common for medical students to have depression, severe anxiety, panic attacks before and after tests and exams. Binge drinking was extremely common after. At least two students committed suicide.

A glimpse into US medical school life:

https://web.archive.org/web/20101218031844/http://www.medsch...

Definitely not something to be emulated.

Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do people simply assume big tech companies are dumb and they haven't thought their hiring process through? Amazon literally has a research team focused in hiring, and they run A/B experiments to continually improve the process. The current interview format is not a cargo cult, is a high refine process through the years. Is it perfect? hell no, but it isn't the mindless copycat people make it to be. They have actu…

> Amazon literally has a research team focused in hiring, and they run A/B experiments to continually improve the process. The current interview format is not a cargo cult, is a high refine process through the years. The median time an employee stays there is now under 2 years. Clearly Amazon isn't hiring the calibre of people they need.

That's how long they can milk the employees with demanding work expectations until the backloaded vesting kicks in.

Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#546
Our company does 5 interviews for a developer position: pre-screen with recruiter, hiring manager, pair programming, tech deep dive and one with one of the founders.

Having been through the process as a candidate and now involved in it as an interviewer, I can’t say that it doesn’t make sense. It is also quite expensive for us as there will be 7 different people involved but that is 7 people who have a say in assessing the candidate.

This allows for a good assessment of the candidate from different perspectives and also to reduce bias from any individual interviewer (conscious our otherwise).

Hiring the wrong person is expensive, even with a probation period. You have to pay a lot of commission to agencies. We have small teams and onboarding someone ties up valuable resources. Hiring someone means other good candidates might have to be turned away after that.

Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#547

Tech is very cargo cultish, which comes from having a young average age, and a strong survivorship bias in the media. Remember the Google brainteasers? Fizzbuzz? "Culture fit"? Tech companies have the lowest infrastructure costs of any industry, and so they have no place to hang their risk aversive paranoia except on personnel (the safer you are, the more trivial the things you fear). There's nothing logical about it…

I just noticed a research paper called "A Silicon Valley love triangle: Hiring algorithms, pseudo-science, and the quest for auditability" Feb 2022 Mona Sloane,Emanuel Moss,Rumman Chowdhury

Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going through a few days of grueling interviews every few years is vastly preferable to spending a few years working alongside people who can't pull their own weight. Hiring managers are timid about letting people go and it can take an extraordinary amount of time to part ways with unproductive people.

> Hiring managers are timid about letting people go and it can take an extraordinary amount of time to part ways with unproductive people. With respect, it sounds like you had a bad manager. Underperforming teammates are your managers responsibility. They should be working to address that issue with said teammate or part ways. Sucks. Not fun. It's the job though.

Sorry but your response is a No True Scotsman argument. It is understandable why irrational behavior applies here - sunk cost, nobody wants to have the bad news of letting a new hire go, explicit objective setting may require there to be new hires. These will generally apply to any manager. Unless the new hire is clearly stepping out of bounds or extremely negligent, it is going to be a slow process.

Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't see accountants balancing books before they get hired. You sure do, and not just by a hiring manager's whim, but by law. Accountants have occupational licensing. > I think it's time we accept that the person we are talking to is who they say they are on their resume. This is a straw man, I have never "caught a liar" on an a coding exam. What they are helpful for doing is judging the quality of what it mea…

> Accountants have occupational licensing. Forgive my ignorance, but is this during every interview? If I am reading this right this is a certification they'd need to get which would be on their resume. Do they need to re-prove those skills every time?

Sometimes they are even more often, as those licenses often have "continuing education" requirements to keep them active. For example, they expire every two years in California. https://www.calcpa.org/cpa-licensure/renewing-a-cpa-license/...

But no, they don't happen "during interviews". My point is that there's less need to test people during their interviews for occupations with licensing, because they've already been tested before they even showed up for the interview. Depending on where you're at, you can't even legally call yourself an "accountant" without an occupational license. By contrast, anyone can legally call themselves a "software developer" and show up to an interview, which is why the need to evaluate their skills at that moment may be different.

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