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Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

nytimes.com

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Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#731

Post by ineedasername »

pram wrote: post #615
ineedasername wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There appears to be technical issues that caused #1, something about timing rather than a cause that points to more serious problems. If so, the analysis in #2 is based on a data point disconnected from those of the trend. Also the trend in #2 consists if 3 data points. It might be an accurate interpretation, but curves before the '73, '80, '81 recessions didn't follow this pattern. We'd need an explanation for why t…

Growth was already slowing in 2019, which is why the fed started dropping rates in June. In fact 2019 was the lowest growth in the entire decade, the lowest since 2008. https://www.bbc.com/news/business-50234626

That same article, in analyzing the trends, gave the opposite opinion though: that we were less likely to enter a recession than some had thought:

"Wednesday's figures, suggesting resilient consumer spending and strong-than-expected housebuilding, is likely to ease fears that the US will enter recession."

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#732

Post by WalterBright »

Retric wrote: post #730
WalterBright wrote: post #725

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's abusing the word "subsidy".

A tax break on any farmer that grows corn is a corn subsidy. It’s the classic definition of a subsidy in that it reduces costs to create something. Often things are written so exactly one company benefits when they agree to build something like a sports stadium in exchange for zero property taxes for N years. If that subsidy isn’t large large enough they may also hand out cash.

A tax break is not a subsidy.

A subsidy is a payment to the person.

If a farmer lost money one year, the tax break does not financially benefit him.

Money I have left over from paying taxes is not a "subsidy".

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#733

Post by djrobstep »

seibelj wrote: post #654
djrobstep wrote: post #640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've misunderstood. I want to work at the company, I just don't want to be forced to contribute shareholder profits - just like you want to work at the company but don't want to be forced to contribute union dues.

The goal of a for-profit business is to make money. There are plenty of non-profits and government jobs if you don’t want to get with the program. You may be shocked to find a lot of non-profits also need to make cash to survive, however.

Again you've seemed to misunderstand. I'm happy to work at the company and make money, I just don't want to be forced to contribute to shareholder profits, just like you don't want to be forced to contribute to union dues. Why should one be voluntary but not the other?

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#734

Post by djrobstep »

WalterBright wrote: post #591
jdmichal wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my early 20's, I would have agreed 100% with your stance. But, you know what really gives people freedom and liberty? The freedom to fail without worrying about how they're going to keep a roof over their head and a meal on the table. Without worrying that they're one medical emergency away from losing everything they've worked for. You want people creating small, lifestyle businesses? Give them a safety net and l…

You're conflating security with freedom. You can have security or freedom, but not both.

How am I less free because my country has free healthcare and decent unemployment benefits?

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#735

Post by djrobstep »

educaysean wrote: post #712
djrobstep wrote: post #549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does being forced to deal with management and contribute to shareholder profits not take away freedom and agency from the working class?

When did I make this claim? I hate seeing these snarky takes on HN. Lots of things take away agency from the working class: like employer-centric insurance system, complex and regressive taxes, etc. But you already knew these things and you also knew that the topic on hand was about unions. God forbid anyone say anything critical about THAT. If you have a point to make, get right to it instead of hiding behind snark.…

Where's the snark? I'm asking you why if you're opposed to mandatory contribution of union dues by employees, you're not similarly opposed to mandatory contribution to shareholder profits by employees. It's a 100% genuine question.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#736

Post by djrobstep »

educaysean wrote: post #363
giraffe_lady wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I get that, really. If you care about the material conditions of workers today, as they are experiencing them, the greatest threat to their agency by far is the asset owners they work for. There is probably an abstract, theoretical future where worker freedom is significantly curtailed by union power, I guess. But being more concerned with that hypothetical than with the genuine exploitation that is the…

I assume you're writing this from the viewpoint that I consider unions to be ineffective or evil, even. I am not. I share your concerns regarding the owners whose powers often go unchecked in corporate America, and I completely agree that we're reaching dangerous levels. But I'm not speaking in hypotheticals. No, the anecdote I brought up is, in fact, the least hypothetical thing in this conversation thread. My wife…

A very similar thing happened to my wife. My wife examined the company mission statement that was handed to her, decided that the company did not represent her needs adequately, but was told she'd still need to contribute to shareholder profits. This is not enabling her agency whatsoever. Yet she had no voice in this matter.

Organize a corporation, yes - you have my full support. Represent whichever needs your corporation deems to be important, yup - I'm behind it. But don't extort money from those who made the active decision to not be a part of the shareholder profit contribution scheme. This is an active intrusion of her agency, and a real event that I brought up because I didn't think think it was fair.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#737

Post by BuckRogers »

hedora wrote: post #5
BuckRogers wrote: post #3

I have some family members that work at Amazon, my understanding is that the conditions at Amazon are hard to pin down because some warehouses are run just fine and others are abusive. That said, everyone working a job has a right to a union. Whether there's workplace abuse going on or not. All human endeavors are corrupt, including gov't, business, and occasionally unions. Collective bargaining is something I wish I…

Everyone should have the right to collective bargaining. The US is a closed shop country, which means that, once a union is in place, it has an effective monopoly for the workers that work for one of its companies. If we switched to open shop, then unions would have to compete for membership. Of course, the existing unions are strongly against this. As an end result, everyone I know that's been a union member in the…

Union decline is correlated with the collapse in standard of living, which is only held up by (or was) by cheap goods from Communist countries. Not a great thing to support if you value your freedom.

My wife is in a union, and is not strongly against them. In fact, they're the reason she makes a six-figure salary. She also has a robust contract to prevent abuse. I am non-union as a developer and am pretty much over a barrel. It's a no brainer to work in a licensed, union career for most people. The only losers are the owners.

I have been a manager in a union shop though. And had no issues with the union. In fact, companies get the union that they deserve.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#738

Post by BuckRogers »

zjaffee wrote: post #59
hedora wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone should have the right to collective bargaining. The US is a closed shop country, which means that, once a union is in place, it has an effective monopoly for the workers that work for one of its companies. If we switched to open shop, then unions would have to compete for membership. Of course, the existing unions are strongly against this. As an end result, everyone I know that's been a union member in the…

My mom's been in a union for 30+ years and is absolutely a fan of it despite not always liking every decision they make. It's like hating democratic governance, not every democratic decision made is one you're going to agree with, but overall it gives you the ability to shape the future of your workplace in a way you'd never have the ability to otherwise.

It is democracy in effect. "The worst system, except all the others" applies to both quite well.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#739

Post by BuckRogers »

jedberg wrote: post #43
mywittyname wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a text-book example of being a victim of your own success. People have had the perks of union membership for so long, that they no long attribute them to the union. All they see are the costs of the union. Also, I feel like it's safe to assume that you don't know any teachers or police officers? Both those groups seem to very much support their unions.

Most teachers I know, and I know a lot of them, don't really like their union because their union is ineffective. If it actually worked for them, they'd be making wages commensurate with their required education levels.

Your pay is not due to your education level in this world. It's equal to your ability to demand it. Unions don't magically mean you have all the power in the world, it only helps to level the bargaining table.

My wife is a union teacher, and makes a six figure salary. She's hardly a victim, and it's all thanks to her union, and the work of many union members for decades prior.

It doesn't happen overnight, and that may be the problem your union teacher friends are running into.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#740

Post by BuckRogers »

hn_version_0023 wrote: post #53
germinalphrase wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions often train their members and self-enforce safety standards. Both of these things provide a higher quality labor pool for the employer.

Is that relevant in our race-to-the-bottom world where every last corner is cut? I am strongly pro-union, but I don’t actually see corps seeing your point as a positive.

International unions would prevent that. Can't cut corners if everyone you hire is united to ensure everyone is treated equally by the company.
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