Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#461

Post by brian-armstrong » Sat, Apr 02, 2022, 8:59 PM UTC

vikingcaffiene wrote: post #346

Hiring manager here. IMO the current tech hiring norms are gross and not sustainable. It feels like a weird hazing ritual and with the current market, is the single biggest reason you can't hire. Why on earth would someone burn a weekend on a take-home test for your startup when they have 15 other irons in the fire? At my current employer we got rid of all that ridiculousness. No take home test. No live coding. We've…

Going through a few days of grueling interviews every few years is vastly preferable to spending a few years working alongside people who can't pull their own weight. Hiring managers are timid about letting people go and it can take an extraordinary amount of time to part ways with unproductive people.

Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#462

Post by cortesoft » Sat, Apr 02, 2022, 9:00 PM UTC

StupidUser123 wrote: post #106

mabbo wrote: post #44

Having been an interviewer at a FAANG for many years, I can explain some of the logic behind it. I'm not saying this logic is valid , but it's how we got here, imho. First: we no longer trust the hiring manager alone, because probably they aren't a strong developer. We instead trust strong developers that are well trained at evaluating good devs. At the same time, we don't want to thrust a dev onto a hiring manager,…

I’m a HM at a big tech company with this format as well. Honestly, I really like it. I don’t want to hire the wrong person, it’s expensive and it makes my job awful for a while. It’s great getting data points on several programming interviews, system design, etc. That makes my sell interview so much easier because I can trust the process to assess their technical skills. You need multiple people because you’re consta…

> Is it annoying for candidates? Yeah, but we pay you a lot of money, and it does actually work for us

The best candidates can get jobs paying the same or more money with fewer interviews, so the very best aren’t going to pick you.

Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#463

Post by ajsnigrutin » Sat, Apr 02, 2022, 9:01 PM UTC

mabbo wrote: post #44

Having been an interviewer at a FAANG for many years, I can explain some of the logic behind it. I'm not saying this logic is valid , but it's how we got here, imho. First: we no longer trust the hiring manager alone, because probably they aren't a strong developer. We instead trust strong developers that are well trained at evaluating good devs. At the same time, we don't want to thrust a dev onto a hiring manager,…

If we're talking about a one phonecall + one in person session with different teams, lasting 2, 3 hours max, sure. If you expect me to take time off work 4, 5, 6 times and get inteviewed for several hours each time, you're either paying me for the lost time, or I'm not going through the process the moment i find out the length.

Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#464

Post by rmk » Sat, Apr 02, 2022, 9:02 PM UTC

Sadly, 5-7 interviews are quite common. I think this is because of a few factors:

- Instituting a multi-round interview process makes the company feel like it's very selective and hires only the best. This also discourages 'shoppers'.

- It is perceived to be more 'democratic': if there are 5-6 people in the team plus one manager, by giving everyone the chance to interview and weigh in on the hiring decision, it will be felt that everyone has got a say in who they work with. Plus it now becomes a collective decision owned by the team: if they hire a dud, they have no one but themselves to blame and they still have to work with him and produce results. This will reduce the incentive to hire someone less skilled (no one will admit that it will also reduce the incentive to hire someone more skilled or with a different background that is not easily evaluated).

Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#465

Post by madamelic » Sat, Apr 02, 2022, 9:03 PM UTC

jugg1es wrote: post #343

StupidUser123 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a HM at a big tech company with this format as well. Honestly, I really like it. I don’t want to hire the wrong person, it’s expensive and it makes my job awful for a while. It’s great getting data points on several programming interviews, system design, etc. That makes my sell interview so much easier because I can trust the process to assess their technical skills. You need multiple people because you’re consta…

I would agree with you if the interview process included ANY feedback to interviewees when they were rejected. Prior to COVID, I got flown to Seattle mid-week for 2 nights and interviewed well (the recruiter told me to start looking for houses). But 20 days later I was basically ghosted by my recruiter and I had to escalate to their manager to get a response that I was rejected. They gave me no feedback at all. The i…

> I failed the phone screen somehow by someone who sounded 20 years younger than me

I am definitely a little pretentious for saying this but I get kinda peeved when I am interviewing for high-level roles and my initial tech screen is by a junior engineer. It's not so much that I think I am too smart to be properly evaluated by them or that they aren't worth being part of a hiring pipeline (they very much should be!), but my opinion is that junior engineers aren't properly tuned for what is and isn't a good engineer and if they are, they shouldn't be a junior engineer.

The other side is when I get reached out to interview for a high-level role then get talked down to about how I don't fit their criteria and I basically wasted the executive vice president of external internal engineering's time.

Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#466

Post by littlestymaar » Sat, Apr 02, 2022, 9:05 PM UTC

I'm not sure how a recent trend this is. My father dropped the hiring process at IBM (France) after 3 or 4 interviews in the early 80 because he was told there would was three interviews left. Maybe it's just big company whose management really want to feel secure about their hire (or justify their job, who knows).

Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#467

Post by imapeopleperson » Sat, Apr 02, 2022, 9:05 PM UTC

mabbo wrote: post #44

Having been an interviewer at a FAANG for many years, I can explain some of the logic behind it. I'm not saying this logic is valid , but it's how we got here, imho. First: we no longer trust the hiring manager alone, because probably they aren't a strong developer. We instead trust strong developers that are well trained at evaluating good devs. At the same time, we don't want to thrust a dev onto a hiring manager,…

All great points - you obviously condense this into a single day, right?

Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#468

Post by fleetwoodsnack » Sat, Apr 02, 2022, 9:08 PM UTC

tomc1985 wrote: post #226

nharada wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think part of the reason is also that tech has matured to the point where it's so complex that nobody can handle it alone or even in a small group. A couple of people (no matter how supersmart) simply could not build and maintain even a single product of a large tech company. Similar stuff happened with other technology too. A couple people could build an early airplane but a modern jetliner is so tremendously comp…

And how much of that complexity is truly needed? Or is that another one of the lies proferred by its financiers?

In the case of the airplane, it’s essential.

Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#469

Post by madamelic » Sat, Apr 02, 2022, 9:09 PM UTC

gcheong wrote: post #249

StupidUser123 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a HM at a big tech company with this format as well. Honestly, I really like it. I don’t want to hire the wrong person, it’s expensive and it makes my job awful for a while. It’s great getting data points on several programming interviews, system design, etc. That makes my sell interview so much easier because I can trust the process to assess their technical skills. You need multiple people because you’re consta…

“Is it annoying for candidates?” Not just annoying, it can be downright demoralizing going through the interview process when the standard is “reject for any one reason, only accept if all agree.” and no feedback whatsoever is given.

Also the fact that hiring almost ends up looking to the most senior engineers for up and down which means you've just wasted multiple hours having less senior people interview them.

Rarely have I ever seen a candidate be rejected by seniors or leads and still get the job even when the decision had to be argued until it was unanimous. Pretty much if a senior goes thumbs down, the decision has been made and the meeting is over.

Leads and CTOs especially have to be mindful of either not being part of the decision or being the last vote, as to not taint the results... which again, means that the most senior vote will flip a "yes" to a flat "no"

Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#470

Post by daenz » Sat, Apr 02, 2022, 9:10 PM UTC

bobabob wrote: post #447

vikingcaffiene wrote: post #346

Hiring manager here. IMO the current tech hiring norms are gross and not sustainable. It feels like a weird hazing ritual and with the current market, is the single biggest reason you can't hire. Why on earth would someone burn a weekend on a take-home test for your startup when they have 15 other irons in the fire? At my current employer we got rid of all that ridiculousness. No take home test. No live coding. We've…

> I think it's time we accept that the person we are talking to is who they say they are on their resume. Yea because we live in a place where everyone is super honest and no one is going to try and take advantage of that to make 500k a year. IMO, it doesn't work. Talk is cheap. I wouldn't have a job if I had to talk my way into any company, I'm an introvert, I suck at communicating orally. But I can solve problems a…

>Yea because we live in a place where everyone is super honest and no one is going to try and take advantage of that to make 500k a year.

I would be THRILLED if I was put into some kind of a short probationary period, with limited access (and potentially restricted salary, with retroactive reimbursement) while I showed what I was worth. I personally have a hard time demonstrating that in short interviews, and it's only once I come in contact with the shape of the company's problems do I show my value. Imo it would lower the stress and paranoia on both sides over a candidate's fit.