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Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

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Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> PIPing and firing is a huge time and emotional energy suck, and it sucks So is the 7 interview gauntlet. But I guess it just shifts the burden on the candidates and externalizes cost.

In my experience, it seems to take a company about 1-1.5 years to fire someone that's well intended but ineffective in their role. 15 or so "wasted" person-hours up front is well worth avoiding thousands of wasted person-hours, especially considering maybe 1 in 5 candidates that make it to a full interview are a good fit.

15 extra hours * N candidates per opening * M people onboarded per additional marginal employee discovered.

Picking numbers from a hat say 15 * 7 * 20 = 2,100 unproductive hours to avoid a subpar employee that still actually gets something done in the ~3,000 hours before being fired. That could easily be a net loss depending on how much onboarding time is needed and how unproductive they are on average.

Honestly, I think those numbers may be overly generous to long onboarding processes.

Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#412
post #44

Having been an interviewer at a FAANG for many years, I can explain some of the logic behind it. I'm not saying this logic is valid , but it's how we got here, imho. First: we no longer trust the hiring manager alone, because probably they aren't a strong developer. We instead trust strong developers that are well trained at evaluating good devs. At the same time, we don't want to thrust a dev onto a hiring manager,…

I’m a HM at a big tech company with this format as well. Honestly, I really like it. I don’t want to hire the wrong person, it’s expensive and it makes my job awful for a while. It’s great getting data points on several programming interviews, system design, etc. That makes my sell interview so much easier because I can trust the process to assess their technical skills. You need multiple people because you’re consta…

> Is it annoying for candidates? Yeah, but we pay you a lot of money, and it does actually work for us. Is it perfect? No, but it does work.

I've never been paid for interviewing. You mean you pay the successful candidates well, which is what? 10% of the people you subject to this obnoxious process?

Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#413
post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've seen a bit more than half of fired employees come back with some form of discrimination lawsuit threat That's crazy. I have literally never heard of anyone actually doing that irl, only ever in the media (and then mostly English-speaking media at that). Half of them? Do they ever win those? Don't they need to pay for the company's lawyer costs if you can convincingly argue this claim is entirely baseless oppor…

The challenge is that in some states, employer suits attorney fees are paid by the employer. So employees can hire an attorney on spec to threaten the company, and say "pay us less than the cost for you to defend this suit and win, and we will go away". So you put the company in a situation where: - if they win they are out maybe -$100k - if they lose, they are out maybe -$250k (Assuming the dispute is about $50k). A…

Or just give everyone you fire $10-50K in non-disparagement/severance/hush money to go away. That's what I've seen that worked fairly well.

Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#414
post #86
post #56

There needs to be something like the SAT for computer programming. Getting a 1500 won't mean you're a genius but it will mean you can do the job, and then there can be 1-2 interviews for domain-specific skills and culture fit. I know many have tried this, some have built great businesses, but nobody has yet become "The Credential" but I do believe this will eventually exist.

Sure, and then this test will closely correlate with IQ, strongly select for you-know-who, and we’ll be right back where we started.

Hopefully it would correlate with programming ability and not general IQ.

Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#415
post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've seen a bit more than half of fired employees come back with some form of discrimination lawsuit threat That's crazy. I have literally never heard of anyone actually doing that irl, only ever in the media (and then mostly English-speaking media at that). Half of them? Do they ever win those? Don't they need to pay for the company's lawyer costs if you can convincingly argue this claim is entirely baseless oppor…

The challenge is that in some states, employer suits attorney fees are paid by the employer. So employees can hire an attorney on spec to threaten the company, and say "pay us less than the cost for you to defend this suit and win, and we will go away". So you put the company in a situation where: - if they win they are out maybe -$100k - if they lose, they are out maybe -$250k (Assuming the dispute is about $50k). A…

> things like to arbitrate

Having commercial companies sit in a judge's seat is so dystopian I haven't even read the idea in any fiction yet. This is the second time I come across it, previous time was when someone pointed out that the Epic Store has such a clause in the TOS.

Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> PIPing and firing is a huge time and emotional energy suck, and it sucks So is the 7 interview gauntlet. But I guess it just shifts the burden on the candidates and externalizes cost.

It also selects for people who will put up with anything, which to a cynical manager might sound like a good employee, except that our job is to replace labor with machines. People who put up with anything are expensive. They keep billing you hours for tasks that could have been reduced to minutes by someone with a lower tolerance for BS.

It's probably also selecting for people who are unemployed and therefore much more able to attend the entire gauntlet than those already employed.

Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#417
post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is PIP?

"(Personal|Professional|Performance) Improvement Plan". It's the first formal stage in the firing process at most companies with HR depts, which would almost certainly include any publicly-listed company. If you're at the PIP stage, it generally means your boss and your superboss have decided that it's time for you to go, but for legal purposes, they need to look like they tried to give you a chance, so they work wit…

> it generally means your boss and your superboss have decided that it's time for you to go

The problem is that those are two highly correlated data points. Toxic bosses are eventually found but at that point they leave a track of dead bodies.

What I have seen sometimes is moving around disgruntled employees. It has its own problems but a lot of the times they are recovered and even become very productive again.

Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got the 2% from a presentation by a company in the business of prepping people for FAANG interviews, the actual number could be higher but I was just trying to make a point about relative probabilities.

Ahhh, I believe that 2% of people apply might get the job possibly. To me that's a question of a challenging applicant pool. What do you think your chances are if you're actually qualified? My made up gut numbers: At least 70% even if you don't practice leetcode. That's the real question here in my mind, what are an otherwise qualified candidates chances? How much does that change with interview skills, prep, leetcod…

I’ve made it to both Google and Facebook onsights. I still have no clue what my chances were going in but got rejected both times. If you get through leetcode then you can get an onsight but that’s when they actually attempt to measure competency with a system design interview. Which is fine but I’d rather they just front load the interview with it than my chances of getting to an on-site be left up to whether I happen to suss out the aha solution to any random leetcode problem (while I’m trying to explain my thought process of course).

Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not "best for everyone." Hired and fired quickly is better because when I have to dedicate weeks or a month of unpaid, uncompensated time to your process then I'm the one losing. You are already getting paid for putting in the work of interviewing me. If your team is stretched so thin that you need to put your time at a premium, that's a problem with your process not having enough throughput. How many people do…

If it's taking months, then they're doing it badly. Our hiring process is five rounds but it never takes more than a couple weeks, including the negotiation phase. Our data shows that we need something like 14 resumes to get one candidate worth interviewing. Of those, it takes 4-6 candidates for one hire. Hiring and firing fast means we also have to invest in onboarding, training and allowing people to settle in. Dur…

> If it's taking months, then they're doing it badly.

is not responsive to

> I have to dedicate weeks or a month

Re: Ask HN: When did 7 interviews become “normal”?

#420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a HM at a big tech company with this format as well. Honestly, I really like it. I don’t want to hire the wrong person, it’s expensive and it makes my job awful for a while. It’s great getting data points on several programming interviews, system design, etc. That makes my sell interview so much easier because I can trust the process to assess their technical skills. You need multiple people because you’re consta…

There is another thing - if you want to work at a FAANG, presumably you want to be there a while. Anyone who can't put up with a little bit of nonsense and headache for something meaningful is likely to struggle with any nonsense and headache generally. Working on any large scale project at a FAANG is going to involve a decent amount of nonsense and headache, and you gotta roll with it. And then on the flip side - if…

I agree with this. Honestly, as a candidate, I don't mind the longer interview loop. What I do mind is if it's very spread out. I'm willing to invest an hour up front + a full day round, but I don't want that longer round spread out over the course of multiple days. I'll give you 6 hours in a day, but not 2-3 days of 2-3 hours each.

My expectation at this point is:

Pre-onsite:

- 15 minute with a recruiter, tell me a little bit about the role, spend the majority of the time telling me why I should join the company, and take a few questions

- 30-45 minutes with the hiring manager. Tell me about what you really want, scope, the challenges, and let's talk about how I might fit. Do enough Q&A both ways to feel comfortable, and then let's make a call right there as to whether we want to continue on. For my part, I always tell the HM at this stage whether or not I'd be excited to continue.

Up to now, I've invested an hour. This is reasonable. Maybe we both like each other, so presuming we do, when you call me about the on-site, we should work out acceptable comp ranges. These may move upward after the on-site based on what I learn about the role, but let's make sure we won't waste one anothers' time with the on-site.

Continuing to the on-site:

- 60-90 mins on whatever technical background is required for the role. I'm fairly senior in management, so this usually doesn't involve code, but should cover whether or not I have a clue how to lead it. For an IC technical role, if we're smart about it, we'll know enough without doing 5X leetcode and 3X design here. I can also evaluate whether I care about your problem space if we don't make the content entirely synthetic. In 90 minutes, it's perfectly reasonable to do a design exercise + picking something in there to write some code around. This is it, though. One technical round!

- 30 mins x 3-4 with key peers/stakeholders. Make sure my behavioral stuff works for you, that we can understand one another, and yeah, that we might actually like each other enough to work together. I like to talk, and so if the other person does, make it 45 mins.

- 60 mins with the HM again to dive deeper on the role with the context gained from the interviews. Heavy Q&A. Let's give each other enough to make a decision.

- If you want, 60 minutes with whatever executive (besides the HM) will be closest to the role. Whatever you want to talk about. Let's just see if we can communicate.

You can cut this to half a day if you cut your most efficient interviewers down to 45 mins and don't overdo it with peer/stakeholder interviews, but I'd rather make it a full day with some breaks. This is because I need time to interview you, and that mostly happens after you've run through your things in each interview. We should all have enough information to decide here, and I'm not taking the on-site anyway if the first hour we had together didn't generate strong interest, right?

After this, call me within a couple of days, let me know if we're doing an offer or not. If we are, let's confirm expectations. The only things that will offend me at this point is if we're not in the ranges we previously discussed, or you want to do more rounds. I'm open to one more if there's a good reason for it (not wanting to use that person's time for the on-site is not a good reason). But we've had a day together. While one day is not necessarily enough to know for sure that things will work well long-term, even another full day isn't going to change anything about that.

Also, while the focus of the original post is mostly critical of the lengthy process and it being annoying to candidates, there's also the reality that the longer the loop, the fewer candidate throughput the hiring manager can have. There are only so many interview cycles per week before an interviewer burns out on it or can't get their job done as well. I'd argue that if you stretch these things out to a day, you will think harder about who you are bringing on-site.

If we agree for the most part that the time together wasn't nonsense and a headache, as you put it, that's a good indicator that we should work together!

tl;dr - I'm fine with 7 interviews if they're the right 7 interviews and planned thoughtfully.

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