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America COMPETES Act of 2022 passed House and Senate

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Re: America COMPETES Act of 2022 passed House and Senate

#161

Post by someguydave »

vmception wrote: post #66
adtac wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what lobbying in America _really_ looks like, sneaking in random shit into bills. I'm sure the coconut water lobbying group (never thought I'd say that phrase) worked its ass off for this. Time to pop the coconut water flavoured champagne.

The alternative is coconut water business leaders running a coup de tat on random pacific islands and petitioning for territory status within the US All to circumvent tariffs on their exports to remain competitive Well, the distinctly American alternative

sounds fine to me

Re: America COMPETES Act of 2022 passed House and Senate

#162

Post by N1H1L »

jl2718 wrote: post #157
N1H1L wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elucidate - your unfair advantages. Honestly at this point I am sick and tired of this dog-whistling nonsense. And when called out all of you losers act all innocent about it. That shtick worked years back, but it's just plain racist in 2022 and it's well known. Get lost.

Americans families pay taxes to universities. Then they pay tuition to universities. Then their children go to work to pay loans. Forever. Universities pay administrators to import labor for their government grants. Why are there so many foreign PhD students? Are Americans lazy? No; we have to work. Education is high-class leisure in America. Decades ago, Americans went back to school after paying off loans and getti…

The total foreign STEM PhDs is 15,000 per year. Even if you add all of them together for the last decade, it won't even crack the top 50 largest places in the US.

Your fact-free rants aside, what people forget is how few PhDs are there, actually. Let's take materials science; even the largest schools in the discipline do not even produce 30 PhDs per year. Less than 300 materials science PhDs graduate in total in the US per year; that's it. If all materials science PhDs ever granted in the US sit together (less than 30,000), they won't even fill a football stadium.

And you can't just scale things up, equipment is multi-million dollars and it takes years to train good scientists. Nativist attitudes like yours leads to a company like ASML residing outside the US rather than inside.

You want to dig your own country/communities' graves - go for it. Just don't expect kudos for doing harakiri.

Re: America COMPETES Act of 2022 passed House and Senate

#163

Post by jl2718 »

N1H1L wrote: post #162
jl2718 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans families pay taxes to universities. Then they pay tuition to universities. Then their children go to work to pay loans. Forever. Universities pay administrators to import labor for their government grants. Why are there so many foreign PhD students? Are Americans lazy? No; we have to work. Education is high-class leisure in America. Decades ago, Americans went back to school after paying off loans and getti…

The total foreign STEM PhDs is 15,000 per year. Even if you add all of them together for the last decade, it won't even crack the top 50 largest places in the US. Your fact-free rants aside, what people forget is how few PhDs are there, actually. Let's take materials science; even the largest schools in the discipline do not even produce 30 PhDs per year. Less than 300 materials science PhDs graduate in total in the…

Correct; the programs can’t scale. Schools give a fixed number of PhDs every year. They can either give them to Americans or to foreign students. Hint: same with PhD employers.

To be fair, I do understand the point of international competition for those slots, but that’s not directly aligned with the interests of the American middle class that pays the tuition and grant money to those schools.

I don’t understand your ASML anecdote. The US has far more immigrant workers than any other country on earth. Is ASML avoiding us because that’s not enough? Are Taiwanese and Korean semiconductor industries failing due to their focus on citizen training and employment rather than labor imports?

Re: America COMPETES Act of 2022 passed House and Senate

#164

Post by bigbillheck »

jl2718 wrote: post #163
N1H1L wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The total foreign STEM PhDs is 15,000 per year. Even if you add all of them together for the last decade, it won't even crack the top 50 largest places in the US. Your fact-free rants aside, what people forget is how few PhDs are there, actually. Let's take materials science; even the largest schools in the discipline do not even produce 30 PhDs per year. Less than 300 materials science PhDs graduate in total in the…

Correct; the programs can’t scale. Schools give a fixed number of PhDs every year. They can either give them to Americans or to foreign students. Hint: same with PhD employers. To be fair, I do understand the point of international competition for those slots, but that’s not directly aligned with the interests of the American middle class that pays the tuition and grant money to those schools. I don’t understand your…

> Schools give a fixed number of PhDs every year.

There were 55000 phds awarded in 2020, up from 40000 in 2000.

Re: America COMPETES Act of 2022 passed House and Senate

#165

Post by N1H1L »

jl2718 wrote: post #163
N1H1L wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The total foreign STEM PhDs is 15,000 per year. Even if you add all of them together for the last decade, it won't even crack the top 50 largest places in the US. Your fact-free rants aside, what people forget is how few PhDs are there, actually. Let's take materials science; even the largest schools in the discipline do not even produce 30 PhDs per year. Less than 300 materials science PhDs graduate in total in the…

Correct; the programs can’t scale. Schools give a fixed number of PhDs every year. They can either give them to Americans or to foreign students. Hint: same with PhD employers. To be fair, I do understand the point of international competition for those slots, but that’s not directly aligned with the interests of the American middle class that pays the tuition and grant money to those schools. I don’t understand your…

I don't think you are coming into this discussion with opinions based on facts because I do not believe you bothered searching for them. You already have preconceived ideas - US universities are running a gigantic coordinated conspiracy to lockout American nationals from science and hire only foreign nationals.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Most STEM faculty are hyper-ambitious people who care about grant funding and their h-indexes above almost everything else. Secondly, the funding scenario makes it much easier to recruit US nationals over foreign citizens.

Most US universities desperately want to hire US nationals for their doctoral programs; it's cheaper and more grants are available (as many DoD/DoE projects require US nationals due to export control restrictions). During my grad school days earlier in the last decade, almost all US citizen Ph.D. students were on some national fellowship, such as NSF, NDSEG, SCGSR, or EGRC. As a result, their stipends were $10,000 more than mine. And due to these fellowships, they were free for their Ph.D. advisors, while I cost my advisor $65,000 per annum. Despite these scholarships, that we have to admit so many foreign nationals paint the correct picture of the ground reality - the US doctoral STEM pipeline is really narrow.

Part of this is plain numbers - India and China have 7-8 times more people than the US does. And in the college-going age, it's an even more significant gap, as the fertility rate in the US fell below the replacement level many decades back. The second factor is the cost of education in the US. However, it's screamed about more than it really is an issue. The largest STEM educators in the nation are all public schools, where in-state tuition rates are still reasonable, and a full degree costs less than $50,000. Still, college tuition is a significant problem, and we should solve it. At the very least, it will expand the pipeline quite a bit, but not, in my opinion, enough to fill the gap.

Honest question - have you talked with any US universities' graduate program officers rather than spouting off Steve Bannon's conspiracies.? You think your points look smart, but I know what it is - uninformed ramblings since I know the ground reality.

ASML and TSMC are running almost exclusively today by US trained people. The fact that the United States trained them and lost them - is a point of deep concern. And people like you will prolong this crisis through misguided xenophobia rather than contributing to a meaningful solution.

Re: America COMPETES Act of 2022 passed House and Senate

#166

Post by N1H1L »

coolso wrote: post #151
N1H1L wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elucidate - your unfair advantages. Honestly at this point I am sick and tired of this dog-whistling nonsense. And when called out all of you losers act all innocent about it. That shtick worked years back, but it's just plain racist in 2022 and it's well known. Get lost.

Sorry but you can’t toxically gaslight me and most of the country into idly standing by in the current year while governmental policies continue to give foreign countries and non-Americans advantages over the American people. The age of globalism and outsourcing so corporations can sell out the American worker and consumer for a quick buck and a cheap disposable product made in a country with lax environmental laws a…

What fair or unfair advantages? Nobody is toxically gaslighting you. Just pointing out that your assertions are fact free xenophobia.

Re: America COMPETES Act of 2022 passed House and Senate

#167

Post by jl2718 »

N1H1L wrote: post #165
jl2718 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct; the programs can’t scale. Schools give a fixed number of PhDs every year. They can either give them to Americans or to foreign students. Hint: same with PhD employers. To be fair, I do understand the point of international competition for those slots, but that’s not directly aligned with the interests of the American middle class that pays the tuition and grant money to those schools. I don’t understand your…

I don't think you are coming into this discussion with opinions based on facts because I do not believe you bothered searching for them. You already have preconceived ideas - US universities are running a gigantic coordinated conspiracy to lockout American nationals from science and hire only foreign nationals. Nothing could be further from the truth. Most STEM faculty are hyper-ambitious people who care about grant…

So far I don’t think I’ve expressed any opinions that could be classified as xenophobic. I assure you that your accusation of inexperience with top STEM graduate programs is misplaced. If I had to posit a “solution”, I would first ask what the problem is. It seems to be “not enough Americans with advanced STEM education”. Well, clearly there are two ways to go about solving it. One is to import labor, but that clearly reduces incentives and makes the problem worse, so you’d also need to lower the cost and increase the supply of STEM education for Americans. This could be budget-neutral if H1B was an auction and/or salary floor rather than a lottery. I admit it seems a bit ridiculous to wring hands over a few PhDs when there are armies of H1Bs accepted on salaries that qualify for housing assistance, to say nothing of unregulated immigration. So yes, let’s have them all, as many as American businesses will pay a significant premium for. And maybe let’s also have American tax dollars spent on economically-valuable education for American students exclusively.
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