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Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

nytimes.com

281–290 of 785 posts

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#281

okay this is amazing. but wtf is this sentence? "No union victory is bigger than the first win in the United States at Amazon, which many union leaders regard as an existential threat to labor standards across the economy because it touches so many industries and frequently dominates them."

They're trying to sneak in an opinion that they're ascribing to "many union leaders" for the sake of their narrative, but they couldn't find anyone who actually said it like that. The NYT do it so often and obviously that it must be in the style guide.

Not said by the NYT: "[Amazon is] an existential threat to labor standards across the economy because it touches so many industries and frequently dominates them."

The previous was actually said by Mr. Many U. Leaders who I can't locate a phone number for.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#282
I was in a union (not by choice) the first ten years or so of my professional life. To put it in simple terms: I despise them. Yes, of course, they had reason to exist in the dark ages. Today, I think they are in a range between counterproductive and dangerous.

Before anyone make a move for the jugular: I make a distinction between union members and union management (the entity). Union members are hard working folks, just like anyone else. They want the best for their families. That's their driving force. Nothing wrong with that at all. We all want the same things. Union management, on the other hand, well, I the tend to be between evil and criminal.

Today, US unions, in my opinion, destroy jobs. And they have done this in massive numbers. I still remember having a long conversation with a guy who retired from the printing industry. He explained, in great detail, how the union that ruled his industry absolutely decimated it. He lost his pension, benefits, etc.

The problem with US unions is that they exist to squeeze as much from companies as humanly possible. One of the most egregious examples I have seen of this is what the UAW (United Auto Workers) contracts that made US auto companies have more than 10,000 employees getting paid full wages and benefits (about $130K/year) to do nothing. Non-US car companies don't have this unbelievably destructive expense.

The effect of squeezing every possible drop out of a business is that you simply cannot be competitive over the long run. The other side effect is that economics and competitive pressures will force you to move portions of your process offshore and automate as much as you possibly can.

So, yeah, union leaders likely gave themselves a huge pat in the back for pulling that one off. And they made millions themselves (they get paid very well). And yet, a the ground level, they destroyed jobs, damaged companies, likely caused people to have serious psychological problems and damaged the long term viability of jobs.

When a company had hundreds of millions of dollars in dead-weight over head for years and years, sooner or later, there will be consequences. This is like fundamental laws of physics that cannot be violated.

In my little slice of the universe, as we are building a new manufacturing business, everything that can be automated will be so. There is no way we can pay someone $15 per hour (EDIT: to put screws into holes). If there was a way to do so and remain viable, I would have no problem with it. The truth of the matter is, this wage is a job killer. The US is already not competitive due to the huge cost of doing business here. This makes it worse.

On top of that, the combination of the $15/hr minimum wage, pandemic and other world issues has resulted in serious inflationary issues. Which means that the people who got that $15/hr wage (if they have a job at all), did not, in reality, get a raise at all. So, all we've done by pushing this nonsense is increase costs and destroy jobs.

Brilliant.

I know they look at all of this in China and cannot believe the US seems intent on destroying itself from the inside. I know because I also manufacture in China and talk to our suppliers all the time. They always tell me about how they are getting new customers because the cost of doing business in the US increases year after year.

As I said. Brilliant.

Sadly, people will not learn this lesson until things are bad enough to be obvious to nearly everyone. To be fair, what I am saying above requires having a reasonable understanding of business and skin in the game. Most people, the vast majority of people, go through life in complete ignorance of these realities. And so it is to be expected that, when the time comes to make decisions (voting) they are easily swayed into making truly dumb choices from the perspective of those who do have context.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#283
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One can simply look at the public school system and how well it performs with one of the strongest unions in the country. Except that states that outlaw teacher's unions have lower teacher pay and worse average scores/outcomes. They're totally comparable too, public daycare ahem school and software engineering.

Non union private schools have higher test scores than union public schools in the same states

Private vs. public school comparison introduces a lot of compounding variables including skirting the requirement to adhere to the same teaching standards - a lot of private schools embed either religious or political ideologies into their teaching which drives private interest groups who share those interests to financially underwrite them.

Sadly due to how strange private education in the US can be I don't think any comparisons between private and public education are really fair.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#284

I had a boss who was an expensive consultant for unions. He explained the reason unions in the US were shrinking is that they are too powerful. They control huge pension and healthcare portfolios and can completely control the relationship with employers, especially in closed shop situations. Comparatively, European unions are much "weaker" - or maybe more accurately their purview is much smaller. They control smalle…

Its very on brand that the first response to this on HN is more or less: "Okay, hear me out, but what if Unions in America are really _too strong_?". Very counterintuitive thinking.

I think there is a point there. Looking back at the 60s-80s we see a clear concentration in corporate power as antitrust enforcement waned, followed by a similar consolidation in labor power. Unions certainly are not too strong relative to corporate power, but I don't think it's wrong to assert that unions failed at their height because they became large and corrupt - Jimmy Hoffa is a pop culture reference specifically because of it.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have evidence to support that the strong union in Seattle negatively influenced the SC voters? SC has the lowest union membership in all 50 states - there's a lot of ingrained bias against unions there, and I'm not sure I see the connection to the Seattle, WA plant or workforce.

I work in an office in the SC factory, that comment does indeed reflect the truth. Of course, SC unions are weak and relatively unpopular but that isn’t the whole story here. Just trying to provide some detail.

but how?

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#286
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Everyone loves unions, somehow they overlook the outrageous power of police unions to keep terrible people in their ranks. Unions represent their members' interests, that's the entire point of unions. It says more about the entire profession of policing (i.e. that there are so many terrible officers that the not-terrible ones can't do anything about them) than it does about unions, to be honest.

How would you purpose that the not-terrible officers do something about the terrible officers? What should the great and inspiring teachers do about the bad teachers?

The union's members could agree to set appropriate boundaries, e.g. not defending staff who break the law.

There are two unions representing metro train drivers in London, and I have little respect for RMT since they've gone on strike to defend a driver who was sacked for turning up drunk to work[1]. The other union (ASLEF) seems more reasonable.

When an issue is important to both unions (e.g. pay for nighttime services) they wield considerable power. If only RMT strike, there's significant disruption but trains still run.

[1] https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2015/februa... / https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/mar/07/london-under...

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#287
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I very much agree. Every worker should unionize, for the good of us all. Far too much power has been ceded to companies pushing for abusive working practices, that are now largely culturally normalized.

Well, no, I can bargain individually better than a group could try to on my behalf.

That's awesome - I'm a skilled laborer who isn't really comfortable bargaining on my own behalf. Do you mind sharing your people skills while I share my engineering skills so that we can both get a better outcome overall?

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#288
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterintuitive to what? Do you have stories or facts you want to share that argue unions in US are actually comparatively weaker than their European counterparts? The only thing you illustrated was that you were personally astonished by OP's comment, but I don't think that carries as much weight as you think it does.

One of my favorite unionization stories comes from Denmark when unions in various industry sectors joined together to force McDonalds to adhere to union rules.[1] The US has so few weak and disparate unions that that story could never play out there - even up here in Canada we're pretty anti-union in general. 1. https://mattbruenig.com/2021/09/20/when-mcdonalds-came-to-de...

Thanks for the article; it was a fun read. I actually had the privilege of working for a start up that was spun up in Denmark before it packed up everything and moved to the US. Because the CEO and a bunch of senior folks were Danish, they adopted what we called the Danish benefits: 6 weeks of vacation + multiple personal holidays. I miss it sorely, despite my current workplace offering "unlimited PTO" ugh.

Reading the article really reinforced how Denmark (most Scandinavian nations, actually) has a strong worker-first culture. I agree with you in that I don't ever see this scenario playing out in the US, for various reasons.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#289
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, no, I can bargain individually better than a group could try to on my behalf.

Unions are helpful in two scenarios: 1) When workers want systemic reform of an organization. 2) When workers are more-or-less interchangeable. Software engineers aren't interchangeable at all compared to a factory worker, which is why they have such great individual bargaining power and why (historically) they don't really feel a huge need for a union to represent them. Today, software workers have a bit more intere…

Saying that software engineers are not interchangeable is being delusional. We have some bargaining power because this is a skilled office job where the demands outweighs the supply and our added value to the business is many times what we get paid. But many SWE job hob every two years or so at best, and they absolutely get replaced without a second thought.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#290
When this has happened at individual Walmart stores in the past, the company would immediately shut down the store and everyone would lose their jobs. A couple years later they would build a new store within 20 or so miles of the old store, free of the union. This was obviously financially painful for Walmart, but it served as such a strong signal to employees to not even try to unionize that it must have paid for itself many times over given Walmart's thousands of stores. I wonder if Amazon has been taking notes from them on this.
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