Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#261

Post by munk-a » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 7:31 PM UTC

morelish wrote: post #118

londons_explore wrote: post #34

Can Amazon now just shut down that warehouse and fire all the workers? It would seem like a sensible business move, even if it involves a little bit of service disruption for users in New York.

Amazon has historically had the capacity to be ruthless. For example in it's fight against collecting state taxes, it shutdown third-party sellers in states that introduced laws requiring Amazon to collect state taxes. Eventually Amazon lost that battle, which paved the way for Amazon opening more fulfilment centres in more states. I wouldn't be surprised if Amazon announced the closure of this fulfilment centre. It…

> I wouldn't be surprised if Amazon announced the closure of this fulfilment centre. It would seem dramatic but if it kept other centres from unionizing I could see Amazon taking the short-term discomfort.

I think you're underestimating the long term pain Amazon is opening themselves up to by closing a recently unionized site. With a labour shortage and extremely high churn Amazon is already having hiring issues - scabs aren't really on the menu if you're already scraping the barrel and a large employer in the local market.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#262

Post by baccaratclub » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 7:31 PM UTC

cs702 wrote: post #103

A single successful effort of unionization at an Amazon facility is more than symbolic: It will encourage -- and serve as a blueprint for -- employees at other Amazon facilities to do the same. Moreover, it will motivate employees at other large companies to try. This has been brewing for a while. It's possible we'll see a generational wave of unionization.

I totally agree with you, Amazon is like that.

https://www.google.com/

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#263

Post by e40 » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 7:32 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #145

cs702 wrote: post #103

A single successful effort of unionization at an Amazon facility is more than symbolic: It will encourage -- and serve as a blueprint for -- employees at other Amazon facilities to do the same. Moreover, it will motivate employees at other large companies to try. This has been brewing for a while. It's possible we'll see a generational wave of unionization.

>unionization at an Amazon facility is more than symbolic: It will encourage -- and serve as a blueprint for -- employees at other Amazon facilities to do the same. It really depends on how things play out. E.g. what the extra union dues' payments will be in relation to the extra benefits received from union representation. Or maybe Amazon responds with a "business decision" to close JFK8 fulfillment center. So it ca…

Given SC rejected the union is interesting, given the quality issues that resulted in Boeing's plant in SC. The reports of managers putting defective parts back into service was horrifying (this was reported by a whistleblower).

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#264

Post by jethro_tell » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 7:32 PM UTC

vikingerik wrote: post #251

marricks wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cases like this you really need to be extremely specific about what powerful means. I think a lot of left leaning folks could agree with such statements but made too broadly it can be taken a number of different ways. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone pro union who'd say unions have too much influence or sway in the lives of US citizens. Most workers don't have union representation and unions don't have mu…

> Also, when COVID occurred there was little room for teachers to get a say This may have been a positive. The teachers and their unions are only motivated for them to stay home and "safe", forever. It's the customers (parents) who need the leverage to get the teachers to actually deliver the service they're getting paid for, rather than trying to hide from their job indefinitely as many would be happy to do. Unions…

No post body was provided.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#265

Post by bdefore » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 7:33 PM UTC

vikingerik wrote: post #251

marricks wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cases like this you really need to be extremely specific about what powerful means. I think a lot of left leaning folks could agree with such statements but made too broadly it can be taken a number of different ways. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone pro union who'd say unions have too much influence or sway in the lives of US citizens. Most workers don't have union representation and unions don't have mu…

> Also, when COVID occurred there was little room for teachers to get a say This may have been a positive. The teachers and their unions are only motivated for them to stay home and "safe", forever. It's the customers (parents) who need the leverage to get the teachers to actually deliver the service they're getting paid for, rather than trying to hide from their job indefinitely as many would be happy to do. Unions…

This is uncaring towards those working hardest on the challenges of education. Teachers more than those in most occupations are driven by care for their customers - their students. The low pay and hard work drives many of them away. Righteous parents even more.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#266

Post by pessimizer » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 7:35 PM UTC

beastman82 wrote: post #133

Everyone loves unions, somehow they overlook the outrageous power of police unions to keep terrible people in their ranks. Also Union actions against nonunion jobs are borderline criminal most of the time.

> they overlook the outrageous power of police unions to keep terrible people in their ranks

No, this is exactly what police unions should be doing. My problem is when elected officials and judges kiss their asses and defer to them on the subjects of public safety and civil rights.

I'm stunned by how much weight public officials and journalists give to the opinions of police about the causes of crime, the motivations of the people who commit them, and the punishments that criminals deserve. Who cares what they think about the justice system? Tell me about hitting people with sticks, directing traffic, or leaving the military with no real job prospects.

But aside from that, police are often underpaid and overworked, have to deal with workplace safety and harassment, not given anonymous channels to complain, etc. just like everybody who works. They need unions to fight for those things. Police unions are awful and racist because the police are awful and racist. The union should be working for them, not for racial justice. If you want police unions to be less racist, hire fewer racist police, and don't demand that they operate in a racist manner.

When I hear people complain about public unions, I hear people that are disapproving of unions when they're the ones in the position of employer. It's basically being pro-union except for the one at the business you own, who are clearly just outside agitators with an evil agenda making trouble and trying to destroy your family.

It's common, though. Center-left media outlets hate unions in their newsrooms as much as they love unions at e.g. Amazon.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#267

Post by Spivak » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 7:38 PM UTC

clove wrote: post #201

cs702 wrote: post #103

A single successful effort of unionization at an Amazon facility is more than symbolic: It will encourage -- and serve as a blueprint for -- employees at other Amazon facilities to do the same. Moreover, it will motivate employees at other large companies to try. This has been brewing for a while. It's possible we'll see a generational wave of unionization.

It will also encourage downsizing and expediting the shift to replacing humans with robots.

Great! It’s only because of our stupid system that removing the need for thousands of humans to spend their lives doing unnecessary labor is a bad thing.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#268

Post by munk-a » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 7:39 PM UTC

tuckerman wrote: post #222

oblio wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You shouldn't be forced to join a union but joining a union should not be an issue for any company. In practice, creating unions is heavily frowned upon and discouraged through various underhanded means. That should tell you that companies view unions as enemies, and collective bargaining in general. And companies for sure don't have your interests in mind. Also for sure you don't have the negotiating power they have…

Not arguing against all unions here, but I think saying all companies don't have our interests in mind is a bit hyperbolic. Many software engineers and product managers at places like Alphabet and Meta are treated extremely well, make great salaries in the bay area, and (at least pre pandemic) were catered to with many great benefits (including catering). There are some jobs/places where this isn't the case, but many…

As incredibly inflated as developer salaries might seem - these companies make insane profits because developers create a lot more value than they cost. Companies never have your best interests in mind, small companies can act altruistically on small scales, but altruism is one of the first things that companies optimize away (beyond the level that earns them good PR). All those nice "free" benefits exist to make the employer more attractive to new employees, if you are a loyal employee no longer able to work productively due to an accident or other life changes you'll be exposed to just how much companies care about you. Silicon Valley has so much money that they can go pretty extravagant with benefits and perks, but (excepting again small/new companies that are living on VC funding) companies do care first about their bottom line.

And, to be clear, I'm not actually saying this is necessarily a bad thing. I personally believe that social services should be at the grace of the government and not your employer - but this system relies on people on both sides of the fence (employee and employer) realizing that their employment is a contract that is to the benefit of the company and if their contract ceases to be beneficial it will be terminated. Being unaware of this fact will lead you to grief - it's on you to make sure you're getting a fair share for your value (which might, just FYI, include diverting a lot of your value creation to warehouse workers and the like who you think deserve a higher standard of living)

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#269

Post by UncleOxidant » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 7:40 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #145

cs702 wrote: post #103

A single successful effort of unionization at an Amazon facility is more than symbolic: It will encourage -- and serve as a blueprint for -- employees at other Amazon facilities to do the same. Moreover, it will motivate employees at other large companies to try. This has been brewing for a while. It's possible we'll see a generational wave of unionization.

>unionization at an Amazon facility is more than symbolic: It will encourage -- and serve as a blueprint for -- employees at other Amazon facilities to do the same. It really depends on how things play out. E.g. what the extra union dues' payments will be in relation to the extra benefits received from union representation. Or maybe Amazon responds with a "business decision" to close JFK8 fulfillment center. So it ca…

> Or maybe Amazon responds with a "business decision" to close JFK8 fulfillment center.

It's quite possible. They'll need to unionize several more Amazon facilities in that region to prevent that outcome. Not sure how many more are in process.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#270

Post by beastman82 » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 7:41 PM UTC

qorrect wrote: post #164

beastman82 wrote: post #133

Everyone loves unions, somehow they overlook the outrageous power of police unions to keep terrible people in their ranks. Also Union actions against nonunion jobs are borderline criminal most of the time.

Don't forget the pervasive corruption and theft from those union bosses too.

I didn't want to bloat it, but yes this is what comes naturally from such a powerful position and has effectively no oversight from Democratic governments