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Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

nytimes.com

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Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#101

Post by Spivak »

josephcsible wrote: post #78
Spivak wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes zero sense, you're drawing huge conclusions based on a prisoner's dilemma situation. Of course it's beneficial to be a defector, you get all the benefit but none of the cost. Once no one is unionized at all or it's so small to not have any pull the benefit disappears. It's like saying that taxes are useless because given the choice people would opt-out if they could, ignoring the consequences of if everyon…

How is it a prisoner's dilemma? Why would a union give its benefits to someone who didn't join?

Because not all the benefits of membership are excludable. Unions that hold employers accountable to following labor laws and safety regulations benefit all employees, same with annual raises, removing abusive managers, better benefits, overtime pay [1], etc. etc. Some benefits are excludable for sure, a union isn't going to fight a non-members wrongful firing case.

[1] Some unions manage to get payroll benefits for just union workers but it's vanishingly rare because it just pushes workers to the union if they don't give it to everyone.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#102

Post by dymk »

hmfrh wrote: post #99
dymk wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, no, I can bargain individually better than a group could try to on my behalf.

You probably think that you do, but in reality you don't. Large corporations have been proven to fix wages for tech workers[1]. There's literally no way that you could have any possible way of bargaining your way around that as a single person. [1]: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/04/24/306592297...

Looks like the US government "bargained" for me there, without the need for a union.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#103

Post by cs702 »

A single successful effort of unionization at an Amazon facility is more than symbolic: It will encourage -- and serve as a blueprint for -- employees at other Amazon facilities to do the same. Moreover, it will motivate employees at other large companies to try. This has been brewing for a while.

It's possible we'll see a generational wave of unionization.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#104

Post by memish »

strombofulous wrote: post #20
amelius wrote: post #9

It's great that people are standing up against the abusive power of big companies. When will Apple (App Store) developers unionize?

Why should developers unionize? I love not being in a union. If my company starts dicking me around I'll quit and find another job. Besides, if I do something so bad my boss wants to fire me, fine then I'll go work somewhere where people want me. I don't want to have to bring in my union rep to argue about it since going somewhere else means losing my tenure and taking a 30% pay cut. The only time unions make sense i…

That so many tech workers don't understand that is legit scary. It's illogical and counterproductive, so it strongly suggests a parasitic mind virus has taken root.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#105

Post by selfhifive »

leetcrew wrote: post #36
Spivak wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't open-shop effectively "no union" in practice? What threat does a union have when the company can just hire non-union workers?

maybe this is a naive perspective, but it seems to me that the union should have more to offer labor than simply middlemanning access to an employer. if people genuinely want to be in the union, it should be hard to find non-union workers.

That could end badly because you don't want to have too many gatekeepers. I should be allowed to not be part of a group and work as I see fit. Unions are hit-or-miss. Bad ones have too much petty politics and corruption and that's why some people genuinely don't want to be in a union. Enforcing unions more strictly can make the good better but it can also make the bad worse.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#106

Post by judge2020 »

javert wrote: post #75
equality wrote: post #62

This is fantastic news. Well done, Amazon employees! I'm glad to see that Amazon's anti-union propaganda was taken for the nonsense that it is. Hopefully the employees of other Amazon warehouses will be inspired to do the same, after this win for workers.

HN is not a political forum. I get that we like to talk politics here, and that's all well and good. But having someone make a brand new account to make a political opinion post that has little to no intellectual content seems like it should be unwelcome.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13108404

> Why don't we have some politics but discuss it in thoughtful ways? Well, that's exactly what the HN guidelines call for, but it's insufficient to stop people from flaming each other when political conflicts activate the primitive brain. Under such conditions, we become tribal creatures, not intellectually curious ones. We can't be both at the same time.

> A community like HN deteriorates when new developments dilute or poison what it originally stood for. We don't want that to happen, so let's all get clear on what this site is for. What Hacker News is: a place for stories that gratify intellectual curiosity and civil, substantive comments. What it is not: a political, ideological, national, racial, or religious battlefield.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#107

Post by brimble »

leetcrew wrote: post #36
Spivak wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't open-shop effectively "no union" in practice? What threat does a union have when the company can just hire non-union workers?

maybe this is a naive perspective, but it seems to me that the union should have more to offer labor than simply middlemanning access to an employer. if people genuinely want to be in the union, it should be hard to find non-union workers.

They also often provide legal help and various sorts of insurance. They'll also usually provide representation & assistance for workers who come into conflict with management, which can be super important when it comes to enforcing safety standards, contract terms (e.g. working conditions, rules around time-off requests), and even legal requirements.

The trouble with completely optional membership is that it introduces the good ol' Free Rider Problem, bane of many an attempt to make things better without forcing anyone to do anything.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#108

Post by legitster »

I had a boss who was an expensive consultant for unions.

He explained the reason unions in the US were shrinking is that they are too powerful. They control huge pension and healthcare portfolios and can completely control the relationship with employers, especially in closed shop situations.

Comparatively, European unions are much "weaker" - or maybe more accurately their purview is much smaller. They control smaller geographic regions, and in general, all of the heavy lifting for healthcare and pensions and worker rights is handled by the government. So the unions' focus is entirely on the collective bargaining piece. Also, unions tend to be more regulated - they can't carry so much bloat. All in all, everyone, companies included, have less reason to combat unions.

I'd be interested to hear if anyone has experience with both and can gauge the accuracy.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#109

Post by tifik »

strombofulous wrote: post #20
amelius wrote: post #9

It's great that people are standing up against the abusive power of big companies. When will Apple (App Store) developers unionize?

Why should developers unionize? I love not being in a union. If my company starts dicking me around I'll quit and find another job. Besides, if I do something so bad my boss wants to fire me, fine then I'll go work somewhere where people want me. I don't want to have to bring in my union rep to argue about it since going somewhere else means losing my tenure and taking a 30% pay cut. The only time unions make sense i…

> If my company starts dicking me around I'll quit and find another job.

I agree with this sentence - because of the current state of the job market, and the level of seniority I have attained. However, if you are entry or junior, or if the market changes (good times don't last forever), just working a 'skilled labor' job won't give you the job security we enjoy atm. In that case, looking for a new job would be much more daunting, and working on improving your current work conditions might be a much better option.

(edit - improve accuracy of which part of the statement I agree with)

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#110

Post by josephcsible »

Spivak wrote: post #101
josephcsible wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it a prisoner's dilemma? Why would a union give its benefits to someone who didn't join?

Because not all the benefits of membership are excludable. Unions that hold employers accountable to following labor laws and safety regulations benefit all employees, same with annual raises, removing abusive managers, better benefits, overtime pay [1], etc. etc. Some benefits are excludable for sure, a union isn't going to fight a non-members wrongful firing case. [1] Some unions manage to get payroll benefits for…

Why is a union necessary to enforce labor laws and safety regulations? Can't individual employees report such violations to the government even in non-union shops?
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