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The big automotive semiconductor problem

asianometry.substack.com

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Re: The big automotive semiconductor problem

#61

Post by hulitu »

bayindirh wrote: post #2

From the article: > Mobile phone SOCs integrate a substantial amount of function right onto the chip. Why hasn’t that been the case for the car? Because your mobile phone SoC is not certified for -20/+80 degrees Celsius, copious amount of vibration, error-free operation on many environments (incl. inputs with wrong voltages, shorts, etc.), and have a lifetime of 10+ years with the same performance characteristics. Yo…

-20 ° C - + 80 °C is for keyfobs. For ECUs in the passenger compartment is -40°C - 85 °C and for ECUs in the engine compartment is -40 °C - 105 °C.

Re: The big automotive semiconductor problem

#62

Post by hulitu »

Isinlor wrote: post #14
bayindirh wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The discrete components are designed, tested and verified after a long stint and their specs are frozen. It's a bit like space hardware. You verify an older CPU design can work reliably in space, and certify that processor. Then, you use the same foundation for a decade or so. It's same with automotive industry. You have a well defined and certified stack from Delco, Bosch, Delphi, etc. and you can trust that hardwar…

SpaceX works around that by using consumer grade stuff and just replicating it 3 times. Tesla also managed to handle issues with supply shortages very well. The old practices are just not good enough.

Tesla is not a car. It looks like one, it might behave a bit like one but i would not touch such a thing even with a 9 m pole. I heard too many horror stories about Tesla requirements.

Re: The big automotive semiconductor problem

#63

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

aidenn0 wrote: post #27
chmod600 wrote: post #12

What devices are left that are fairly normal (that normal people might interact with in a given week), mechanical or electromechanical, have at least modest complexity, and have no microchips? Locks? Guns? What else? EDIT: perhaps an extra requirement that it's fairly durable, i.e. easily lasts ten years of normal use. EDIT2: maybe it should also fit the requirement that it's a current model in production and that yo…

Can opener Stapler Loud-speakers Shop vac

There's nothing mechanically or electrically complex about a speaker. It's a coil and a magnet attached to a bit of paper/plastic.

Re: The big automotive semiconductor problem

#64

Post by mschuster91 »

dylan604 wrote: post #54
Retric wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not really accurate the sun causes real issues in LEO. See chapter 2 starting on page 9 here: https://commons.erau.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1101&co...

As an anecdotal bit of support, I seem to recall recently SpacX loosing a number of satellites in their LEO constellation because of sun activity

Yes, but that was not due to EM activity, it was because the solar activity made the atmosphere go up higher than usual which meant that the atmospheric drag was too strong for the engines to overcome.

Re: The big automotive semiconductor problem

#65

Post by shadowpho »

bayindirh wrote: post #2

From the article: > Mobile phone SOCs integrate a substantial amount of function right onto the chip. Why hasn’t that been the case for the car? Because your mobile phone SoC is not certified for -20/+80 degrees Celsius, copious amount of vibration, error-free operation on many environments (incl. inputs with wrong voltages, shorts, etc.), and have a lifetime of 10+ years with the same performance characteristics. Yo…

Also... mobile phone SoC are made in much higher quantities then car chips: there are much more phones shipped then cars. Therefore R&D costs per unit are significantly lower with phone chips and you can spend more.

Re: The big automotive semiconductor problem

#66

Post by tablespoon »

dylan604 wrote: post #10
geocrasher wrote: post #6

This article does a good job outlining why these systems can't just be replaced with a Raspberry Pi or an Arduino: Durability. At one point I was interested in replacing the ECU in my old '88 Suburban. The ECU is probably the only "real" bit of electronics in the whole vehicle. And yet after almost 35 years it's still doing fine. The Arduino based ECU I was looking into, as it turns out, is a great hobby project, but…

The space shuttle used a hardened 386 (or something similar) that cost a bazillion dollars. The drone currently on Mars used commidity off the shelf chips (snapdragon IIRC). The harsh conditions thing is not something to laugh at, but I also think we might have over-engineered somethings a bit.

> The space shuttle used a hardened 386 (or something similar) that cost a bazillion dollars.

Their main computers were a custom variant of the IBM 360 mainframe. They also duplicated it 5x: 4x with majority vote for error correction, plus a backup running separately-developed software.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_System/4_Pi

> The drone currently on Mars used commidity off the shelf chips (snapdragon IIRC). The harsh conditions thing is not something to laugh at, but I also think we might have over-engineered somethings a bit.

It should be noted that drone is 1) an engineering experiment and 2) no one will die if it malfunctions, so they can afford to be a bit sloppier.

Re: The big automotive semiconductor problem

#67

Post by aidenn0 »

HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #63
aidenn0 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can opener Stapler Loud-speakers Shop vac

There's nothing mechanically or electrically complex about a speaker. It's a coil and a magnet attached to a bit of paper/plastic.

High-order crossover filter?

Re: The big automotive semiconductor problem

#68

Post by ryanobjc »

bayindirh wrote: post #2

From the article: > Mobile phone SOCs integrate a substantial amount of function right onto the chip. Why hasn’t that been the case for the car? Because your mobile phone SoC is not certified for -20/+80 degrees Celsius, copious amount of vibration, error-free operation on many environments (incl. inputs with wrong voltages, shorts, etc.), and have a lifetime of 10+ years with the same performance characteristics. Yo…

When you buy semiconductors on digikey or whatever, there are several different 'classes' of performance. Everyone imagines milspec being the top one, and it's true, but for most people the ideal class is 'automotive'... Because precisely of what the parent said: tolerances of temperatures to 140F or more. Think of a car sitting in a baking parking lot in Phoenix, no shade.

You don't build semiconductors for that purpose by using 10nm process then adding a lot more redundancies when all you need is a simple opamp. You instead build the thing beefy and resistant to the environment.

And all the excitement over new chip plants by TSMC etc, won't do a thing for these automotive applications.

Re: The big automotive semiconductor problem

#69

Post by unregistereddev »

dclowd9901 wrote: post #51
JKCalhoun wrote: post #25

> Automakers found that mechanical, hydraulic or pneumatic controls failed to achieve enough accuracy and consistency over each vehicle's usage life to meet these emissions tests. This was especially the case as the car aged. Decades ago, I owned an old Alfa Romeo that incorporated a complicated cam system to control the oxygen ratio to the fuel injection system. More complex than your typical 1-dimensional function…

Sounds a bit like BMW’s VANOS or Honda’s Vtec. Variable cam timing is super cool tech and a huge reason newer cars are so much faster than old cars.

If described correctly, it is a different concept. Variable cam timing in the context of VANOS / Vtec / VVT refers to variable timing on the camshaft that controls valves.

This sounds different, and I think it refers to mechanical fuel injection. Several automakers experimented with mechanical fuel injection in the 80's and early 90's, but I think the concept died pretty quickly. It was rather complex, failure prone, and less efficient than EFI.

Re: The big automotive semiconductor problem

#70

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

aidenn0 wrote: post #67
HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing mechanically or electrically complex about a speaker. It's a coil and a magnet attached to a bit of paper/plastic.

High-order crossover filter?

Well, if we're going there, we might as well just delve into the whole Active Speaker thing and get into the amplifiers.

But a basic speaker (driver) that's been around for decades is essentially a small linear motor: one moving part and very simple in operation.

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