Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are you actually an MD? I actually only ever hear about acetaminophen/paracetamol being dangerous from Americans - in other Anglo countries everyone will happily suggest you take it all the time, it is available OTC, and it comes as something kids will mistake for lemonade. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Lemsip-Cold-Blackcurrant-Flavour-Sa... > Ibuprofen and Aspirin are not perfect but they are much, much, much safer than…
No, I am not. It's a dune reference. Ulcers ("destroying your stomach lining") is less bad than "destroying your liver", and typically you will have to screw up harder before other NSAIDs reach that level. Tylenol literally is dangerous following the directions on the bottle , because those directions aren't calibrated for chronic usage, when they say "daily max" they don't mean you take it daily , that dose is even…
The Uselessness of Phenylephrine
291–300 of 613 posts
Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine
#292I've certainly found it useless, and when I need a decongestant I make certain I'm getting actual pseudoephedrine. The 12 and 24 hour slow-release versions are fantastic. I've never done a proper blind trial on myself, but I feel quite certain that I could tell the difference. I suppose people must be buying it, and given how strong placebo effects are in general I guess it's doing something for them.
Same, Sudafed is a silver bullet for me. The 12 hour release absolutely works to clear my sinuses and relieves the sinus pressure headache (almost completely when combined with ibuprofen). My wife insists Phenylephrine works for her and thats all she will take. She has offered it to me a couple times when we didn’t have any Sudafed and Phenylephrine had 0 noticeable effects for me. Edit: I forgot to add that Alavert-…
Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine
#293Earlier quoted context omitted.
Although perhaps true about FDA clearance, I wouldn't be alarmist and characterize the effective dose as "dangerously" close to the LD50. The highest dose that therapeutically is used is about 1000mg per dose. The fatal dose is about 15 times that amount. To put it into perspective, a patient would have to be willfully taking 45 tylenol (325mg/pill) all at once to cause lethal liver damage. Doses like that are usuall…
Not accidental, but very tragic. It's the #1 cause for calls to poison control, and accounts for 26,000 hospitalizations every year, and 500 deaths. Dying from an acetaminophen overdose is not a good way to go out, you spend a couple days in the hospital suffering as your organs fail and your loved ones watch. Other OTC drugs are much safer. I don't allow acetaminophen in the house. Pseoudoephedrine? Yes. Acetaminoph…
Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine
#294Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine
#295Earlier quoted context omitted.
You seem to be under the impression that there is some 'advanced technology' out there that will magically solve your problems that the US fails to have. In my experience, many people have a quasi-religious belief in the capability of modern medicine to perform what would otherwise be called a miracle. This belief is typically held without any evidence whatsoever. In reality, there are a plethora of conditions, some…
> In my experience, many people have a quasi-religious belief in the capability of modern medicine to perform what would otherwise be called a miracle. This belief is typically held without any evidence whatsoever. Modern medical results would absolutely be viewed as a miracle to someone just a few decades back. Something like 90% of cancer cases are either cured or successfully suppressed (to the extent that the suf…
Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine
#296Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine
#297Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well I was in the ER 2 days ago and my liver enzymes were bad. I don’t drink, he said it was the acetaminophen I’ve been taking. I had been taking significantly less than the recommended amount for less than a week.
(to be clear: not a doctor) the "daily" recommended doses are for a single day. If you are taking it daily you need to at least halve the recommended dose. I wouldn't have said a week was a problem but... yeah. Tylenol is dangerous. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4913076/ Specifically this study referenced: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/211014 > One study reported that ingestion of t…
No. We've got thousands of people living more or less permanently on the maximum daily dose, including some children and vulnerable populations. Yes, some of those people have elevated liver enzymes. Yes, Tylenol is dangerous, but certainly not more than the alternatives. NSAIDs are certainly not any less dangerous, especially in populations with high prevalence of diabetes and kidney failure.
Tylenol overdose is one of the most frequent suicide plans in teens, with lethal doses usually starting from 8g. This is one of the reasons Tylenol has such a bad reputation.
Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine
#298Earlier quoted context omitted.
> doesn't get you high. this is the big one. Phenyl-epinephrine doesn't work at all, it's consistently failed to outperform placebo, and the only reason it's on the market is because the FDA doesn't like pseudo-ephedrine (sudafed) because it can be used as a precursor for meth. Same reason they've required individual blister packs for sudafed (if only there was some illicit drug which gave you the focus and drive to…
What makes you say the FDA is actively adding poison to other drugs, are there first hand sources from them? This sounds like it could also be a case where they want to lower opiate consumption, and so adding some Tylenol increases pain relief without increasing opiate intake. I am not sure that’s wise policy, but if you don’t think Tylenol is all that bad (again, I’m not sufficiently informed to say this, but the FD…
Similarly, cutting opioids with Tylenol is not actually intended to be a deterrent to someone who gets their hands on the pills rather it deters people involved with illicit drug manufacture and distribution from using it as a base to grind up and sell.
Tylenol is really not super safe, at least by todays approval standards. Most official sources, which unsurprisingly have a huge bias towards Tylenol’s safety, state that allergic reactions are very uncommon, but recent meta-analysis’ are beginning to uncover that mild to moderate allergic reactions to acetaminophen is more common that originally thought. It does not get reported because if you’re already feeling like crap when you take it, some mild itchiness, redness, and discomfort would not be out of the ordinary without the Tylenol. As mentioned before, the toxic dose is much too close to the effective dose, I’ve heard from medical professionals that doubling a single recommended dose on extra strength Tylenol is enough to cause long-term damage to your liver. On top of all that, the fact that it is a weak pain reliever at best would solidly put this as a drug that’s not super useful.
I have a very low opinion of how we go about drug policy in the US. I am on a very controlled medication due to a sleep disorder (that causes hypersomnia) which I cannot go off for safety reasons. I also cannot get it filled more than 24 in advance without complicated authorization procedures that must be completed in the correct order. It’s a goddamn mess and serves only as a punishment to law-abiding patients for needing this medication. It also does nothing to curb illicit use because synthesis of a more potent product is so trivial.
This is an example of poorly targeted legislation, which was put into place because it’s the only thing they could exert control over. It does not further the stated goals of drug enforcement because it’s so easy to manufacture this stuff and the resulting product is so easy to move, bad actors can simply avoid this system. While I’m spending 3 hours every month orchestrating the complicated dance of my prescription between my providers, the pharmacy, and my insurance, someone is making a batch of shake-and-bake meth in about 3 minutes.
Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine
#299Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Also, this is mostly for comfort. Spoken like someone who has never had severe nasal congestion. A week or two of not being able to sleep, taste, or speak with your normal voice would change your view of the importance of good decongestants.
When i lived in california, this was a yearly ordeal. I also found out that when a bottle says "do not use for more than 4 days" they mean that. I very nearly choked on my tongue because i couldn't move it in my mouth due to the insane dryness, i didn't think it was even possible to accomplish that level of dry. I discovered "neti pots" because in a bout of panicked rage i snorted nearly an entire can of saline nasal…
Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine
#300Earlier quoted context omitted.
You seem to be under the impression that there is some 'advanced technology' out there that will magically solve your problems that the US fails to have. In my experience, many people have a quasi-religious belief in the capability of modern medicine to perform what would otherwise be called a miracle. This belief is typically held without any evidence whatsoever. In reality, there are a plethora of conditions, some…
The messaging in the US most commonly used to justify the lack of universal coverage and unreasonable cost of care is that we pay the most because we get the best treatments and best doctors and best outcomes, so I don’t think it’s fair to blame laymen for believing that. Also, it’s not just patients that think this way. (Or, at least, if the clinicians know, they aren’t saying much to their patients.) I’ve had docs…
For good reason. Tracking of clinical outcomes is the wet dream of insurance companies. It's very toxic to the healthcare system, because it pushes practitioners to focus on easy cases where a good outcome is expected and causes major inequalities in access to healthcare.
I'm not saying the present situation is ideal, but for the system as a whole in its current form, tracking clinical outcomes is a very bad idea.