Earlier quoted context omitted.
Many Americans have difficulty obtaining ID, because they cannot afford or cannot obtain the underlying documents that are a prerequisite to obtaining government-issued photo ID card. Underlying documents required to obtain ID cost money, a significant expense for lower-income Americans. The combined cost of document fees, travel expenses and waiting time are estimated to range from $75 to $175. The travel required i…
> Underlying documents required to obtain ID cost money Err, no they don't. At least not with any of the IDs I've gotten in California for the past several years....
The Uselessness of Phenylephrine
211–220 of 613 posts
Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine
#212Earlier quoted context omitted.
Many Americans have difficulty obtaining ID, because they cannot afford or cannot obtain the underlying documents that are a prerequisite to obtaining government-issued photo ID card. Underlying documents required to obtain ID cost money, a significant expense for lower-income Americans. The combined cost of document fees, travel expenses and waiting time are estimated to range from $75 to $175. The travel required i…
> Underlying documents required to obtain ID cost money Err, no they don't. At least not with any of the IDs I've gotten in California for the past several years....
Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine
#213My drug of choice for colds is NyQuil. It's always been great for opening up my nasal passages enough to let me breathe easily and then knocking me the fuck out so I could sleep off most of the cold. I remember several years ago when all of a sudden NyQuil stopped doing anything useful. I had no idea why but I directly observed that it was like it had been replaced with a non-functioning placebo. Only a couple years…
From what I've read, d-amphetamine[0] was the decongestant of choice for much of the 20th century. It's just that the counterculture weirdos were abusing it and that led to its restriction. Compared to pseudoephedrine its way more useful with minimal side effects like drinking a cup of coffee. [0] https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/04/the-lost-...
Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine
#214I've recently had to deal with the medical profession a lot more than in the past and I'm finding this sort of thing everywhere. OTC medicines that by current standards would not be made OTC, surgeries that are extremely common but have never had quality randomized trials, official sounding diagnoses that on inspection are actually defined as "we have no idea", lack of consensus about how to treat some of the most co…
And now I am reminded of https://dx.doi.org/10.1136%2Fbmj.327.7429.1459 and the fact that there is no randomised controlled trials that show the effectiveness of parachutes either.
Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine
#215Earlier quoted context omitted.
> OTC medicines that by current standards would not be made OTC Acetaminophen would almost certainly be in this category, if it could even get FDA approval at all. The effective dose is dangerously close to a toxic dose that causes liver damage, and not comfortably-far from the LD50. The only reasons acetaminophen is OTC is that it's been informally grandfathered in, makes an absolute fortune for pharmaceutical compa…
How is this "dangerously close to toxic"? Extra strength is 500mg. Adults should not take more than 3000mg in a day. Taking 7000 more more can lead to liver problems. https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/002598.htm Common dosage forms and strengths: Suppository: 120 mg, 125 mg, 325 mg, 650 mg Chewable tablets: 80 mg Junior tablets: 160 mg Regular strength: 325 mg Extra strength: 500 mg Liquid: 160 mg/teaspoon (5 mill…
Also note that those dosages are only for single usages! Tylenol also has a fun thing where daily/chronic usage within the "safe" dose can still cause liver damage. Chronic usage, you need to halve those doses.
The causal mechanism is believed to be basically low-level liver damage. Drinking a sixpack of beer once every couple weeks is fine - it's still not healthy, it damages your body, but your liver will repair itself in the meantime - but do it every day and your body cumulatively cannot repair the damage, while drinking a ton could cause acute failure. Tylenol actually works the same way - every dose is damaging your liver a bit, but if you don't do it every day it's fine, your body will repair it. But if you do take it daily, your body doesn't get a chance to repair the liver damage that tylenol causes, and the actual "safe" dosage becomes lower.
That puts the actual "safe" dose at closer to 1500mg per day for an adult. Having a 2.5:1 theraputic ratio on an over-the-counter drug is absolute fucking insanity.
And worse, those numbers are for men - they're lower for women. Yes, so is the theraputic dose, but they don't make special pills for women. Taking a standard dose (two 325mg pills) twice a day can cause liver damage to women, that's above the safe threshold for daily/chronic use. And that's not something people really consider when they pop a couple tylenol.
And then you've got combination products. OK, so you get sick, you take a couple tylenol and a dose of cough syrup. The dose of cough syrup likely is another 500mg or so of tylenol. So you actually took a 1125mg dose. And then you do it again before you go to bed. That's edging into dangerous territory with tylenol.
Obviously "don't do that", read the label and don't double up on an active ingredient that's already there in combination, but combination products are implicitly dangerous, they are fishing for that to happen, encouraging it. But the FDA wants it because it "discourages abuse". That's literally more important than burning out your liver.
The rest of the world uses tylenol in very niche situations. Usually it's behind the counter at a minimum (not always, but usually) and you probably will be told to take some ibuprofen instead. Ibuprofen and Aspirin are not perfect but they are much, much, much safer than tylenol is.
Tylenol is absolutely, completely, absurdly dangerous and should not be anywhere near as common as it is in the US, but drug war + legacy product sales rule the day.
To echo another sibling commenter here, I don't allow acetaminophen in the house period. It is an accident waiting to happen. I certainly don't allow combination products, and I will actively go out of my way to buy anything that doesn't include it. This is overkill as a single childless person who is aware of the danger, but you never know when something could go wrong and the cat knocks the bottle off the counter and the dog gets it, etc. You just should not keep dangerous things around unless you absolutely need to. Some things you can't avoid, but it's not hard to just buy ibuprofen instead of tylenol.
Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine
#216Earlier quoted context omitted.
I feel like the true “Cocaine Cola Classic” would still have some of that, um, regulated stimulant in it. Cocaine. Might be good for decongestion?
afaik coca cola is the only entity in the US allowed to import actual coca leaves, so, technically?
Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine
#217Earlier quoted context omitted.
And now I am reminded of https://dx.doi.org/10.1136%2Fbmj.327.7429.1459 and the fact that there is no randomised controlled trials that show the effectiveness of parachutes either.
Au contraire! https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5094
Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine
#218Earlier quoted context omitted.
NyQuil is a combination medicine. The cough, cold and flu formula contains Tylenol (fever/pain reliever), DXM (stops cough) and an antihistamine (dries out your runny nose/postnasal drip). NyQuil can be a great all-in-one product when it's what you need. It's useful to know what it is composed of and why. All of the medicines in it treat symptoms, not the underlying cause, which will be fought off by your immune syst…
DXM doesn’t actually suppress cough either, right?
Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine
#219Earlier quoted context omitted.
> OTC medicines that by current standards would not be made OTC Acetaminophen would almost certainly be in this category, if it could even get FDA approval at all. The effective dose is dangerously close to a toxic dose that causes liver damage, and not comfortably-far from the LD50. The only reasons acetaminophen is OTC is that it's been informally grandfathered in, makes an absolute fortune for pharmaceutical compa…
Although perhaps true about FDA clearance, I wouldn't be alarmist and characterize the effective dose as "dangerously" close to the LD50. The highest dose that therapeutically is used is about 1000mg per dose. The fatal dose is about 15 times that amount. To put it into perspective, a patient would have to be willfully taking 45 tylenol (325mg/pill) all at once to cause lethal liver damage. Doses like that are usuall…
Other OTC drugs are much safer. I don't allow acetaminophen in the house. Pseoudoephedrine? Yes.
Acetaminophen also should not be taken as a hangover cure, due to interactions with alcohol (alcohol and acetaminophen compete for the same metabolic pathways in the liver, and this exacerbates the toxic effects of acetaminophen). The problem is that someone who's drinking and has a hangover is probably going to reach for one of the two most common OTC pain relievers in their medicine cabinet, and not consider that one of those two pain relievers should not be combined with alcohol.
Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine
#220Earlier quoted context omitted.
This. Derek has missed that spray is rather effective. Also other agents, such as oxymetazoline is used. They all have a rebound effect, so their use should be limited to 7 days at most. Also, this is mostly for comfort. There is no really reason to go back to pseudo-effedrive and risk side-effect (high-blood pressure etc.). Also people value their comfort a lot, they are not so good with assessing risks. Apparently…
> Also, this is mostly for comfort. Spoken like someone who has never had severe nasal congestion. A week or two of not being able to sleep, taste, or speak with your normal voice would change your view of the importance of good decongestants.
I discovered "neti pots" because in a bout of panicked rage i snorted nearly an entire can of saline nasal wash, had immediate relief, and went and bought my first plastic neti pot. I never use deionized or whatever water, the chances of toxins in my water is extremely low, and i usually just do it in the shower anyhow, where there's hot water right there. Sodium Bicarb + NaCl just works.
More recently for the sort of dry allergy nasal stuff i started putting mentholated petrolatum jelly directly in and around my nose. I'm sure in 10 years i'll find out that i'll get nostril cancer or something, but whatever, i can breathe, thank you very much.