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SerenityOS Browser now passes the Acid3 test

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Re: SerenityOS Browser now passes the Acid3 test

#31

Post by dleslie »

fabrice_d wrote: post #25
joeberon wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, SerenityOS is strictly C++

Which is both very impressive given everything that is being produced, but also a bit scary and sad in 2022. There is ample evidence that even very excellent developers and teams can't avoid the footguns of c++ and that leads issues down the line. If we just look at the browser, they seem to make much faster progress than Servo, but there is no doubt it will have security flaws.

zig has many of the same footguns as C++ and C; it just has better developer ergonomics.

Use after free, double free, invalid stack RW, uninitialized data, race conditions, etc. They're all possible to be found in Zig programs, because the language doesn't provide assurances against them.

Re: SerenityOS Browser now passes the Acid3 test

#32

Post by heywire »

zppln wrote: post #11

Great work by everyone involved. SerenityOS is for me by far the most interesting project in tech right now. It's like watching a different branch of reality evolving. The recent browser optimization videos by Andreas himself have been great. A great moment in particular was seeing Andreas' satisfaction when he go smooth hover effects on links[0], a single moment where he is (presumably) struck with how far his proje…

Andreas’ excitement is infectious. I find myself sometimes smiling in an empty room watching his reaction to getting something working.

Re: SerenityOS Browser now passes the Acid3 test

#34

Post by nightpool »

stolenmerch wrote: post #30

I don't follow web standards closely, but I'm curious if this comment is still true (or was ever true): "For people who don't follow modern web standards, a modern web browser getting 100/100 is actually failing tests. You should get 97/100, failing tests 23, 25, and 35." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18941348

There's an up to date version following modern specs linked in the twitter thread:

https://twitter.com/OrphisFlo/status/1508954585993461763 http://wpt.live/acid/acid3/test.html

Re: SerenityOS Browser now passes the Acid3 test

#35

Post by skyfaller »

fabrice_d wrote: post #25
joeberon wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, SerenityOS is strictly C++

Which is both very impressive given everything that is being produced, but also a bit scary and sad in 2022. There is ample evidence that even very excellent developers and teams can't avoid the footguns of c++ and that leads issues down the line. If we just look at the browser, they seem to make much faster progress than Servo, but there is no doubt it will have security flaws.

Feels like this might be an example of "worse is better".

Or alternately, that the community that SerenityOS has built and the joy they find in tinkering matters more than their technical foundations, in terms of getting something built that works and is maintained/maintainable. Servo looks like it could have been a technically better browser engine, but it seems the window for it becoming relevant is closing, while the future looks bright for SerenityOS's Browser. (I wonder how different things would be if Servo had reached the point where it was easy to run inside of a browser, in terms of dogfooding and getting people excited about it.)

What I would like to see is SerenityOS's joy and welcoming, vibrant community using better technology (in terms of security, if nothing else). Zig seems like a candidate for this, although people may debate its security features and technical merits. I'd love to see more projects like these.

Re: SerenityOS Browser now passes the Acid3 test

#36

Post by nightpool »

Tomte wrote: post #26

It's a great achievement! But note that it doesn't mean that the browser interprets modern CSS correctly. Wikipedia's Acid3 page says: > By April 2017, the updated specifications had diverged from the test such that the latest versions of Google Chrome, Safari and Mozilla Firefox no longer pass the test as written. Hickson acknowledges that some aspects of the test were controversial and has written that the test "no…

I don't know what the divergences are specifically, but there's an up to date version following modern specs that's linked in the twitter thread, that's what the screenshot is of: https://twitter.com/OrphisFlo/status/1508954585993461763 http://wpt.live/acid/acid3/test.html

Re: SerenityOS Browser now passes the Acid3 test

#37

Post by TonyTrapp »

stolenmerch wrote: post #30

I don't follow web standards closely, but I'm curious if this comment is still true (or was ever true): "For people who don't follow modern web standards, a modern web browser getting 100/100 is actually failing tests. You should get 97/100, failing tests 23, 25, and 35." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18941348

The old version (http://acid3.acidtests.org/) will reach 97/100 on modern compliant browsers. There is a newer version (https://wpt.live/acid/acid3/test.html) which incorporates the changes made to the specs in the meantime, so modern browsers will reach 100/100 on this one again. The test was carried out against this version, as you can see in the address bar in the screenshot.

Re: SerenityOS Browser now passes the Acid3 test

#38

Post by [deleted] »

stolenmerch wrote: post #30

I don't follow web standards closely, but I'm curious if this comment is still true (or was ever true): "For people who don't follow modern web standards, a modern web browser getting 100/100 is actually failing tests. You should get 97/100, failing tests 23, 25, and 35." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18941348

[deleted]

Re: SerenityOS Browser now passes the Acid3 test

#39

Post by rvz »

fabrice_d wrote: post #25
joeberon wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, SerenityOS is strictly C++

Which is both very impressive given everything that is being produced, but also a bit scary and sad in 2022. There is ample evidence that even very excellent developers and teams can't avoid the footguns of c++ and that leads issues down the line. If we just look at the browser, they seem to make much faster progress than Servo, but there is no doubt it will have security flaws.

Not sure why you are downvoted, you are totally correct about the footguns that C++ has and why the same issues found in the other browsers will still apply here.

> If we just look at the browser, they seem to make much faster progress than Servo, but there is no doubt it will have security flaws.

Servo was supposed to be the promise of better security in a new browser thanks to Rust. Unfortunately in reality that was just either hype or it was just slow moving progress or perhaps both.

But yes the SerenityOS browser seems to be moving faster than servo whilst sacrificing security.

Re: SerenityOS Browser now passes the Acid3 test

#40

Post by beepbooptheory »

rvz wrote: post #18
zppln wrote: post #11

Great work by everyone involved. SerenityOS is for me by far the most interesting project in tech right now. It's like watching a different branch of reality evolving. The recent browser optimization videos by Andreas himself have been great. A great moment in particular was seeing Andreas' satisfaction when he go smooth hover effects on links[0], a single moment where he is (presumably) struck with how far his proje…

Indeed. It's beyond impressive, especially the web browser from scratch and the whole idea of operating systems that are not typical, yet another Linux distro stuff and having an integrated consistent user interface and open source like RedoxOS, Haiku, Fuchsia, etc has. But let's be a bit realistic, how long can we expect this to be a reliable daily driver on real machines and not stuck on a VM? It has taken more tha…

I think this misunderstands the motives of this project. Its not trying to win any popularity or usability awards.

I see it more as art honestly, even if it does end up having good utility, it will very much always be an encapsulation of this guys passion and expression.

Don't get too poisoned by the business world! Computers dont need to be just efficiency machines.

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