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$625M worth of ETH drained on Axie Infinity's Ronin Network

roninblockchain.substack.com

601–610 of 761 posts

Re: $625M worth of ETH drained on Axie Infinity's Ronin Network

#601
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't always reverse the transaction in regular financial world. It is typically possible if all parties involved act in good faith, and often possible in other cases too, if you act fast, or the bad faith actor is less than competent. However, this is not always the case. Imagine the following scenario: bank A sends $100M to bank B, which then sends it to bank C. By "reversing" the A->B transaction, all you're d…

Isn't the obvious solution to also reverse the transfer from Bank B to Bank C? If multi-hop transfers are treated as irreversible, then it creates an incentive for fraudulent sellers to collect all payments through multiple hops. If instead fraudulent transactions may be reversed at the first payment processor, the payment processor then has a financial incentive to make sure that they only pass through valid transac…

> Isn't the obvious solution to also reverse the transfer from Bank B to Bank C? If multi-hop transfers are treated as irreversible, then it creates an incentive for fraudulent sellers to collect all payments through multiple hops.

Well ... some kinds of transferring wealth are legally harder to reverse after the first transfer.

In the United States, an old-fashioned way of moving money between people, the "check", has behavior specified in Uniform Commercial Code Article 3, Negotiable Instruments.

Article 3 is worth a read; it has filled in a lot of gaps for me about the bare-minimum legal requirements associated with activities like writing a check, post-dating a check, negotiating a check, stopping payment, etc. (In practice banks may do more than the minimum for customer service but it's interesting to understand the basics).

One of my favorite parts is the "holder in due course" rule ("§ 3-202. NEGOTIATION SUBJECT TO RESCISSION.")

If a check gets endorsed a couple of times and a new person takes it in good faith, then that new person is a holder in due course. Some remarkable things happen: even if the check has gotten a stop payment or has otherwise been dishonored, a holder in due course now has the right to the money promised by the check.

I wondered why the law would set up such a convoluted way of making certain payments irreversible. My dad explained:

"""[A] a widely accepted legal framework for negotiable instruments was critical to trade in the era before electronic payments. The problem is convenience - how can a buyer safely pay for goods or services without carrying around a lot of cash? The holder in due course rule basically lets the buyer's bank rely on the form of the negotiable instrument (including a genuine signature) without risking a claim for wrongful payment based on other facts about the sale it can't know."""

So -- can someone take advantage of this behavior to turn a dubiously valid check into an irreversibly one, and get the money?

Yeah! Totally! There's a guy named Robert Triffin who is, like, famous for buying dodgy checks at below their value, cashing them, and suing to get his money when the payor refuses to pay up. I don't have firsthand info about this, I just read news articles, but I think he gets a decent ROI. (See e.g. http://appellatelaw-nj.com/the-first-triffin-case-of-2011/

P.S. Some of my other favorite things about this instrument in the UCC:

* a signature is any mark you intend to be your signature (§ 3-401);

* a check can be written with almost any text and in almost any format on whatever you want (§ 3-104);

* checks can go stale six months after the datestamp but banks can choose to honor them anyway (§ 4-404);

* writing a future date on a check doesn't legally prevent it from being cashed unless you also tell your bank about the postdating in the same way you would make a stop payment order ( § 3-113, § 4-401 )

* If you have a dispute with someone about how much money they owe you for a service, and they give you a check, you can cash the check and write "without prejudice" to indicate that you aren't agreeing that this is the correct amount owed but you do want their money (§1-308). UNLESS the payor has written on the check "a conspicuous statement to the effect that the instrument was tendered as full satisfaction of the claim" (§ 3-311), in which case cashing that check discharges your claim. Which all frankly seems like a mess.

Re: $625M worth of ETH drained on Axie Infinity's Ronin Network

#602
post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buying a subscription to gay.com from Syria. Your on the clock..

>> It doesn't. Everyone who claims otherwise can't come up with a single credible example. > Buying a subscription to gay.com from Syria. That is not a credible example. Here are some reasons: 1) Paying for porn? Paying for porn when the implication is that it's illegal and could get you in trouble? Who would do that? 2) Cryptocurrency isn't anonymous, and is usually highly traceable. 3) And even if it was anonymous,…

Who would pay for porn? Someone who wants to see what's behind that paywall.

Crytocurrency is difficult and costly to trace and exchange identifying not available to Syria.

VPNs would be used

Same process for other currencies on Binance and other exchanges.

Re: $625M worth of ETH drained on Axie Infinity's Ronin Network

#603
post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>encryption has many, many actually useful and productive applications So does crypto but likewise opponents of encryption disregard the positives and focus on the negatives to align with their preformed ideas. The only way out of this trap is to have an open mind and internalize the fact that all technologies can be used for good and evil and thus are relatively neutral overall. Humanity must take the good and bad a…

>> encryption has many, many actually useful and productive applications > So does crypto [...] I'd wager that this is a lie. Please name one. These systems are self referential. Great if all to do is speculate with value changes inside the system. Other use cases? In short: no one has come up with any solution to the oracle problem. As soon as you want to exchange anything crypto with anything but crypto (e.g. USD o…

>> So does crypto [...]

> I'd wager that this is a lie. Please name one.

Alibaba ran a Foreign Exchange service on top of crypto. I don't know if it is still running or not. It functioned like Western Union. Customers sent local currency to Alibaba, Alibaba bought crypto with that local currency and in another country sold that crypto for foreign currency and then deposited it into the foreign currency account.

Re: $625M worth of ETH drained on Axie Infinity's Ronin Network

#604
post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buying a subscription to gay.com from Syria. Your on the clock..

>> It doesn't. Everyone who claims otherwise can't come up with a single credible example. > Buying a subscription to gay.com from Syria. That is not a credible example. Here are some reasons: 1) Paying for porn? Paying for porn when the implication is that it's illegal and could get you in trouble? Who would do that? 2) Cryptocurrency isn't anonymous, and is usually highly traceable. 3) And even if it was anonymous,…

The other poster is probably very confident because gay.com redirects to https://lalgbtcenter.org, which is an LGBT advocacy group in Los Angeles.

Re: $625M worth of ETH drained on Axie Infinity's Ronin Network

#605
post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are neglecting to mention the great upsides in crypto currency. * Giving criminals and scammers the ability to exchange goods and services anonymously. * Providing a source of funding North Korea's nuclear weapons program * Allowing nation states to engage in global commerce despite sanctions because they won't stop killing innocent people * Convincing older and gullible people to give their money to someone they…

The ransomware actually wouldn't exist at all without cryptocurrencies making the scheme viable.

The first ransomware attack was in 1989.

Re: $625M worth of ETH drained on Axie Infinity's Ronin Network

#606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> encryption has many, many actually useful and productive applications > So does crypto [...] I'd wager that this is a lie. Please name one. These systems are self referential. Great if all to do is speculate with value changes inside the system. Other use cases? In short: no one has come up with any solution to the oracle problem. As soon as you want to exchange anything crypto with anything but crypto (e.g. USD o…

I don't have much invested in crypto, and I find PoW hideous. I think crypto is most useful for illegal things and tradecraft, but illegal doesn't mean immoral, and useful to criminals is still useful. * Buying VPN relays anonymously, for connecting to through Tor, VPSes etc. * Buying drugs. * Donating to causes sanctioned by your country. * Paying informants. * Allowing you to prove you're the author of something, o…

I have worked in (used personally or done professionally) pre-crypto versions of these, excluding the dead hand scheme- and although some were a little complex and had some risk, I would argue that the new version has the same complexity and risk, only it seems to be hidden by crypto buzz-words. Also reminds me why I don't do those things any more.

Re: $625M worth of ETH drained on Axie Infinity's Ronin Network

#608
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Giving $650mm in USD to a random company is still infinitely safer than doing so with crypto. If a regulated bank claims they got hacked and lost that amount, there are a slew of federal and state laws and agencies in place to investigate it. With crypto, it could very well be in the wallet of the CEO or IT guy and no one would know.

Just as a side note, people give Starbuck literally billions every year. Not sure what would happend if starbucks get hacked and lost people money.

The difference is Starbucks have 6.5B in cash/cash equivalents, and there is no ways to convert SB gift card balances to cash. What is the hacker going to do with it, order 1B cups of coffee?

Re: $625M worth of ETH drained on Axie Infinity's Ronin Network

#609
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where in the world is it common to lose all money deposited in a bank? And, why not just create better banks?

Entire world in late 1920s, Iceland in 2008,Russia currently. Of course my examples are a bit tongue in cheek, much more nuanced and not as "Bank bad" as I paint them to be. But It's entirely possible for a bank run/economic downturn to wipe out a currency overnight. Does that mean crypto is the solution? It sure doesn't seem to be given cases like this (NFT/ETH being rugpulled from/by videogame devs). But I think th…

I personally keep all my money in Culver's Scoopie Tokens. They're basically just forward contracts written by Culver's on behalf of the dairy industry. Highly liquid, as well.

Re: $625M worth of ETH drained on Axie Infinity's Ronin Network

#610
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't always reverse the transaction in regular financial world. It is typically possible if all parties involved act in good faith, and often possible in other cases too, if you act fast, or the bad faith actor is less than competent. However, this is not always the case. Imagine the following scenario: bank A sends $100M to bank B, which then sends it to bank C. By "reversing" the A->B transaction, all you're d…

The shifting of the goalposts is incredible. Yes, there are flaws in the real world financial system as well. Yet, we’ve heard of more of these scams in years of crypto than in decades and centuries of banking. And no one has still provided an explanation of why crypto is better than the established working system other than “it’s decentralized” except as we find repeatedly, it’s not decentralized.

> no one has still provided an explanation of why crypto is better than the established working system

because the govt cannot ban you from receiving payments if they dont like you.

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